Empowering Birth Experiences: Navigating Trauma and Finding Growth with Dr. Erin Bowe

October is pregnancy and infant loss awareness month.  Today, we have the honour of hosting a distinguished guest, Dr. Erin Bowe. Erin is not only a clinical and perinatal psychologist, but also a course creator and business mentor. Her expertise has touched lives across 45 countries through her mental health courses, and she's the author of two transformative books: "More Than a Healthy Baby: Finding Strength and Growth After Birth Trauma" and "Social Media Detox for Moms: A New Way to Find Balance".

In this insightful conversation, Erin opens up about her own experience with birth trauma, providing a candid and heartfelt account of her journey. With warmth and wisdom, she guides us through recognizing the signs of birth trauma and offers invaluable advice for parents of multiples who may have faced a difficult or challenging birth.

Here are some key takeaways from our conversation:

·        Personal Resilience and Growth: Erin's personal journey serves as a beacon of hope for those who have experienced birth trauma. She shares how she transformed her traumatic birth into a source of strength and growth, inspiring others to find their own path to healing.

·        Recognizing Birth Trauma: Erin provides valuable insights into recognizing the signs of birth trauma. By shedding light on this often-overlooked aspect of the perinatal experience, she empowers parents to seek the support and care they deserve.

·        Navigating Trauma as Parents of Multiples: With a deep understanding of the the effects of birth trauma on mothers and fathers, Erin offers practical advice on how to navigate trauma while caring for more than one child.

This episode is a testament to the power of resilience and the potential for growth, even in the face of profound challenges. Dr. Erin Bowe's compassionate guidance and expert knowledge provide a beacon of hope for parents seeking to heal from birth trauma.

Tune in to this episode to gain invaluable insights on navigating trauma and finding strength in your journey as a parent. Remember to share this episode with anyone who may find comfort and inspiration from Erin's personal and professional experience.
 
 CONTENT NOTE: Some listeners may find details of this episode upsetting. If you need support around birth trauma and you are located in Australia, you can call the PANDA National Helpline on 1300 726 306 for assistance.
 
 To find out more about Dr Erin Bowe:
 dr.erinbowe@gmail.com

https://doctorerin.com.au/

Thanks for listening! If you are a soon-to-be or current parent of multiples, be sure to head over to my website http://www.fiercekindmama.com to get my FREE resources designed specifically for you!

Be sure to follow me on Instagram and Facebook too.

Credits:
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/aylex/with-you
License code: YLMJTQCPKRANEOVB

Transcript

 00:00:00 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Before today's episode, I have a special announcement that I'm so excited to share with you. If you are currently expecting twins, triplets or more, or you know anyone else who is, then you are going to love this. Most often than not getting the news that you're carrying more than one baby can come as a complete and utter shock.

00:00:19 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Add to that the increased health risks and monitoring, and it's no surprise that many expectant mothers feel overwhelmed, exhausted, and stressed, even before the babies arrive.

00:00:32 Dr Cristina Cavezza

And the truth is that most expectant parents do not fully prepare for the challenges that come with raising more than one tiny human at a time.

00:00:41 Dr Cristina Cavezza

So I'm putting together a three part workshop on how to beat, overwhelm, and prepare for raising multiples. It's completely free and if you can't attend live you will have access to the recordings. You can get all the details at my website www.fiercekindmama.com and if you know anyone else who might benefit from this training, 

00:01:00 Dr Cristina Cavezza

please feel free to share the details with them. I can't wait to see you there.

00:01:10 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Welcome to the fierce kind Mama of multiples podcast. This podcast is for anyone raising multiples, twins, triplets or more. I speak to inspiring parents of multiples who have healed from unexpected pregnancies and birthing experiences and who candidly share the highs and lows raising multiples.

00:01:31 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I also speak to the professionals that work with multiple birth families.

00:01:35 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Together we cover the practicalities of raising more than one baby at a time, as well as enhancing the emotional well being of caregivers and children alike. Come join us as we laugh, cry, and share our personal and professional wisdom on all things multiples. I'm your host, Dr Cristina

00:01:54 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Cavezza and I am a fierce kind Mama of Multiples.

00:02:02 Dr Cristina Cavezza

On today's episode, I'm joined by Dr Erin Bowe. Erin is a clinical and perinatal psychologist, course creator, and business mentor. She's the author of two books, more than a healthy baby, finding strength and growth after birth trauma and social media detox for moms, a new way to find balance.

00:02:21 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Erin hosts the weekly mum as you are podcast, and she also teaches students from 45 countries in her mental health courses.

00:02:30 Dr Cristina Cavezza

In this episode, she speaks about her own birth trauma, how to recognise the signs of birth trauma, and what parents of multiples can do if they have experienced a difficult or challenging birth and have symptoms of trauma too.

00:02:42 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I hope you enjoyed this episode with Erin.

00:02:44 Dr Cristina Cavezza

So I'd love to welcome on

00:02:46 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Today's episode Dr Erin Bowe. Erin, lovely to connect with you.

00:02:49 Dr Erin Bowe

You too, thank you. 

00:02:52 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Why don't we start by you telling us a bit about yourself and the work that you do?

00:02:57 Dr Erin Bowe

Sure, I wear many hats. I am a mother of two daughters, they are 5 and 7. That's my main role. I'm also a clinical perinatal psychologist. I've been doing that for about 14 years now. I am an author. I am also a podcaster. I run about 7 different mental health courses.

00:03:18 Dr Erin Bowe

I do a lot of things.

00:03:20 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Oh, wow. Yes. And I'd love to hear more about all of those things. Can we start a bit about your professional experience as a perinatal psychologist?

00:03:29 Dr Erin Bowe

Yeah, I've always loved perinatal work even

00:03:32 Dr Erin Bowe

before I had my

00:03:32 Dr Erin Bowe

children. Mostly, what I specialise in now is birth trauma, which is something never in a million years would I have chosen. 

00:03:40 Dr Erin Bowe

Trauma does not choose.

00:03:43 Dr Erin Bowe

Most things. I had two traumatic births myself so with both of my daughters despite doing

00:03:48 Dr Erin Bowe

hypnobirthing, having a doula

00:03:50 Dr Erin Bowe

Doing all the preparation, being a psychologist and

00:03:52

All of that didn't

00:03:53 Dr Erin Bowe

make any difference. I still had two traumatic births myself. And so from that I feel

00:03:58 Dr Erin Bowe

There's been some

00:03:59 Dr Erin Bowe

Real post traumatic growth

00:04:00 Dr Erin Bowe

That's come from it because I came out of that relatively OK.

00:04:04 Dr Erin Bowe

And I thought, well, if I

00:04:06 Dr Erin Bowe

did that, how did I do that and how

00:04:07 Dr Erin Bowe

Can I possibly

00:04:08 Dr Erin Bowe

Teach other people

00:04:10 Dr Erin Bowe

how to do that, so that's been

00:04:11 Dr Erin Bowe

A bit of a passion project

00:04:13 Dr Erin Bowe

Of mine.

00:04:14 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yes, right. And I think that you know a lot of times I do speak to people who have a passion for something that's often that it doesn't come by accident. You know, it often comes from personal experience. Could you tell us a little bit about

00:04:25 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Your personal experience

00:04:26 Dr Cristina Cavezza

With birth trauma?

00:04:29 Dr Erin Bowe

Yeah. So I suppose I'll give you the short version, because I'm also mindful of details and sometimes

00:04:34 Dr Erin Bowe

That can be tricky for

00:04:36 Dr Erin Bowe

people. So the readers digest version as we'll say. My first daughter I went to 40 weeks. I had gestational diabetes. Maybe. Yes, maybe no.

00:04:48 Dr Erin Bowe

That's a whole other

00:04:49 Dr Erin Bowe

story. So, I agreed to 

00:04:51 Dr Erin Bowe

Be induced. Birth itself was amazing. Very calm, very empowering, but

00:04:57 Dr Erin Bowe

Given the speed with which

00:04:58 Dr Erin Bowe

She came out. She came

00:04:59 Dr Erin Bowe

Out Superwoman style with like 1 arm 

00:05:02 Dr Erin Bowe

Up and she had ripped as she went. 

00:05:05 Dr Erin Bowe

I didn't feel anything at the time. I had kind of a stereotypical physiological birth, no medication other than syntocinon anything like that.

00:05:15 Dr Erin Bowe

But afterwards, I 

00:05:16 Dr Erin Bowe

Started to feel some pain in my back.

00:05:18 Dr Erin Bowe

And that was.

00:05:19 Dr Erin Bowe

Lots of haemorrhaging and injuries, so that was.

00:05:22 Dr Erin Bowe

Got to a stage where it was like 10

00:05:23 Dr Erin Bowe

Out of 10 like pain.

00:05:25 Dr Erin Bowe

And just 

00:05:26 Dr Erin Bowe

Distress. So I went in for surgery and

00:05:28 Dr Erin Bowe

That sort of

00:05:29 Dr Erin Bowe

Started like a

00:05:30 Dr Erin Bowe

Cascading of I just felt like I'd been run over

00:05:33 Dr Erin Bowe

By truck basically.

00:05:34 Dr Erin Bowe

Breastfeeding was

00:05:37 Dr Erin Bowe

hell. Recovery was pretty hellish as well, and it was just like I don't even know what happened, but I think that when I've spoken to lots of

00:05:46 Dr Erin Bowe

Women and families

00:05:47 Dr Erin Bowe

over the years, it's 

00:05:47 Dr Erin Bowe

Been that real sense of.

00:05:48 Dr Erin Bowe

Like just too much, too fast, too soon.

00:05:52 Dr Erin Bowe

I don't even.

00:05:52 Dr Erin Bowe

Know what that was. So, 

00:05:54 Dr Erin Bowe

that was my first birth. The second time around, I opted for some more choices, not being a first time around again, my second daughter turned out

00:06:05 Dr Erin Bowe

To be an absolutely massive baby. So, I 

00:06:07 Dr Erin Bowe

Didn't have gestational

00:06:08 Dr Erin Bowe

Diabetes the second time, interestingly. She was 5 kilos

00:06:12 Dr Erin Bowe

On the dot.

00:06:14 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Oh wow.

00:06:15 Dr Erin Bowe

I'm about 5'4 so

00:06:16 Dr Erin Bowe

That was a bit of a surprise and I was told all the way though she was probably measuring big.

00:06:21 Dr Erin Bowe

And I said no, no, no, la, la, la, la.

00:06:22 Dr Erin Bowe

My body will do what it wants

00:06:23 Dr Erin Bowe

to do. 

00:06:25 Dr Erin Bowe

That is what

00:06:26 Dr Erin Bowe

I chose and then the second time around. Yeah, I agree to have my waters broken. 

00:06:31 Dr Erin Bowe

That seemed to get things started.

00:06:33 Dr Erin Bowe

Turned out she was probably trying to descend

00:06:35 Dr Erin Bowe

but

00:06:36 Dr Erin Bowe

getting stuck. So she

00:06:37 Dr Erin Bowe

had shoulder dystocia

00:06:38 Dr Erin Bowe

which is where your shoulders

00:06:40 Dr Erin Bowe

Get stuck and

00:06:40 Dr Erin Bowe

That was the most intense 3 minutes

00:06:43 Dr Erin Bowe

Of my life.

00:06:43 Dr Erin Bowe

So I was doing really, really, really well and

00:06:46 Dr Erin Bowe

Then all of a sudden, some

00:06:48 Dr Erin Bowe

procedures had to happen. 

00:06:50 Dr Erin Bowe

Still, I suppose again what you'd call a physiological birth. I don't tend to refer to it as a natural birth, because we are in a phase culturally, climately where natural is sort of sometimes

00:07:00 Dr Erin Bowe

Put up on a pedestal and

00:07:02 Dr Erin Bowe

I'm mindful also of your audience who've had multiples who

00:07:05 Dr Erin Bowe

Are not, it's just tricky, right?

00:07:07 Dr Erin Bowe

So, I call it physiological birth. OK, So, no c section. But yeah, it was tricky. And that was like again. What was that? What? Actually what?

00:07:17 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, absolutely. So I can almost just imagine the physical pain you would have been through and that trauma. I guess physically, you know.

00:07:26 Dr Cristina Cavezza

From that point of view, what?

00:07:26 Dr Erin Bowe

It was intense. It was intense. So I personally a strategy I use mostly from hypnobirthing was to not call it pain was to call it sensation. And so when I focused on it being sensation I

00:07:38 Dr Erin Bowe

Think that's partly

00:07:39 Dr Erin Bowe

How I got through it. It's different for everyone, but that's what I partially used. I think to get through it to be like this

00:07:46 Dr Erin Bowe

is a strong sensation that will be over

00:07:47 Dr Erin Bowe

Soon. It will eventually.

00:07:49 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, yeah, I love 

00:07:52 Dr Cristina Cavezza

that as a strategy actually, absolutely not referring to it as pain. Could you speak to us a little bit about what birth trauma is? Because I know that for a lot of the audience that would be listening to this mums of multiples.

00:08:07 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Many women that I've spoken to, or even you know, just heard along the way, casual conversations.

00:08:13 Dr Cristina Cavezza

They'll speak about not even realising.

00:08:16 Dr Cristina Cavezza

That they had a traumatic birth because, as you pointed out earlier, many women do not all, of course, but many mothers multiples give birth via caesarean section. It might even be planned. It might, you know, in that regard.

00:08:34 Dr Cristina Cavezza

They might have been expecting that, but often.

00:08:39 Dr Cristina Cavezza

What happens

00:08:40 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Can be something unexpected, like premature birth, time in NICU or special care nursery. Or you know all of that kind of stuff. And so later on when they bring their babies home and

00:08:51 Dr Cristina Cavezza

They then realise

00:08:54 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Some time later, even that actually they might have suffered a psychological trauma that kind of went undetected unnoticed. So I wonder if you could speak a little bit about what is birth trauma and differentiating. Is there a difference between physiological birth trauma and psychological birth trauma, and what those differences might be?

00:09:14 Dr Erin Bowe

Yeah. It's so much to unpack there and I will say

00:09:18 Dr Erin Bowe

Birth trauma is not known

00:09:19 Dr Erin Bowe

Really, it's the one in three. Like we know it's one in.

00:09:22 Dr Erin Bowe

Three, but that's not.

00:09:23 Dr Erin Bowe

What women are putting into Google so.

00:09:26 Dr Erin Bowe

Often by the time.

00:09:27 Dr Erin Bowe

I see someone. There's been a lot of searching, a lot of conversations.

00:09:31 Dr Erin Bowe

Many, many many other.

00:09:32 Dr Erin Bowe

People involved before someone even comes.

00:09:33 Dr Erin Bowe

To me and says.

00:09:34 Dr Erin Bowe

This is what I've had. You're someone who can.

00:09:36 Dr Erin Bowe

Help me with that. So there really is.

00:09:39 Dr Erin Bowe

No difference like the details.

00:09:41 Dr Erin Bowe

Are not that important. Not to someone like me anyway, a birth is traumatic if someone says to me it is traumatic.

00:09:45 Dr Erin Bowe

Full stop.

00:09:47 Dr Erin Bowe

End of story, the details you're always going to

00:09:50 Dr Erin Bowe

Find someone. Who you.

00:09:52 Dr Erin Bowe

Somehow, objectively think has had it

00:09:54 Dr Erin Bowe

Worse than you.

00:09:55

And that you shouldn't complain.

00:09:57 Dr Erin Bowe

That those details are not interesting to me.

00:09:59 Dr Erin Bowe

I'm more interested in like how did

00:10:00 Dr Erin Bowe

You feel about it.

00:10:02 Dr Erin Bowe

How was that interpersonal experience? Because a lot of.

00:10:05 Dr Erin Bowe

The trauma is.

00:10:06 Dr Erin Bowe

Actually, around interpersonal experience, it's how you were spoken to. It's how you were treated and how your partner was treated.

00:10:13 Dr Erin Bowe

Language that was used, things that were not helpful, or coercion, like there's so much

00:10:18 Dr Erin Bowe

that goes into it. So if we think about

00:10:22 Dr Erin Bowe

Like I get.

00:10:22 Dr Erin Bowe

The horizontal line and one end is maybe what you call the regret that there are people who.

00:10:28 Dr Erin Bowe

Kind of go.

00:10:29 Dr Erin Bowe

It didn't really go to plan. It maybe wasn't exactly what I wanted, but there's not necessarily.

00:10:34 Dr Erin Bowe

Symptoms that go with it beyond

00:10:36 Dr Erin Bowe

the kind of like

00:10:36 Dr Erin Bowe

reflective regret. So we maybe call that birth regret . If you

00:10:40 Dr Erin Bowe

Move up the line a

00:10:41 Dr Erin Bowe

Bit there's maybe what's called little T trauma in that

00:10:44 Dr Erin Bowe

there's some symptoms.

00:10:45 Dr Erin Bowe

There's flashbacks.

00:10:47 Dr Erin Bowe

There's some anxiety. There's.

00:10:48 Dr Erin Bowe

Just generally not feeling very good about it, tearfulness.

00:10:51 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Can range.

00:10:53 Dr Erin Bowe

A lot for different.

00:10:54 Dr Erin Bowe

People, that's kind of like psychologists, we call that subclinical PTSD. We, maybe we call it acute distress disorder. Sort of resolves after a bit of time. Then you've got the big Kahuna.

00:11:06 Dr Erin Bowe

The big T.

00:11:07 Dr Erin Bowe

Trauma, which is post traumatic stress disorder.

00:11:10 Dr Erin Bowe

Unrelenting symptoms pretty much will not go away.

00:11:13 Dr Erin Bowe

On its own, there's no amount of being grateful. There is no amount of insight, there is no amount of affirmation and inspirational quotes on Instagram that is gonna help with that. You need

00:11:25 Dr Erin Bowe

Specific, helpful targeted guidance for that. That's my kind of take on PTSD, I suppose.

00:11:34 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. OK. So there's that continuum from regret to clinical disorder what we would call post traumatic stress disorder. So what does the interventions look like for the different along that continuum? How would you work with someone, say experiencing birth regret

00:11:51 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Versus subclinical PTSD or little T versus big T PTSD post traumatic stress disorder?

00:11:59 Dr Erin Bowe

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's tricky because.

00:12:02 Dr Erin Bowe

The scale that most people.

00:12:04 Dr Erin Bowe

Get after when they're pregnant and also after they've.

00:12:06 Dr Erin Bowe

Had a baby.

00:12:07 Dr Erin Bowe

it targets anxiety and depression. So the Edinburgh scale. Most people would have had it at some stage.

00:12:12 Dr Erin Bowe

whether they remember or not. Everybody is supposed to be screened, it's.

00:12:16 Dr Erin Bowe

An amazing tool but.

00:12:17 Dr Erin Bowe

It doesn't screen for trauma, so I would say

00:12:20 Dr Erin Bowe

Over the last decade or so, the amount of women I've seen who have been referred for perinatal depression or anxiety and trauma hasn't even been something that was considered.

00:12:29 Dr Erin Bowe

It it's getting better.

00:12:31 Dr Erin Bowe

Now, but often.

00:12:32 Dr Erin Bowe

I think that can be a starting point with.

00:12:34 Dr Erin Bowe

People, if you maybe have a.

00:12:35 Dr Erin Bowe

Diagnosis for depression and anxiety, and it's just not shifting. Also flashbacks about the feeling, anxiety about birth and breastfeeding, and the NICU experience and all.

00:12:46 Dr Erin Bowe

Of that is.

00:12:47 Dr Erin Bowe

Not typical of depression and it's not.

00:12:49 Dr Erin Bowe

Typical of anxiety.

00:12:50 Dr Erin Bowe

When it's 

00:12:51 Dr Erin Bowe

Really specific to 

00:12:52 Dr Erin Bowe

That particular situation. So that's sort of the 1st place I guess to start. Interventions are broad. In Australia we are mostly using cognitive behaviour therapy, compassion therapy is really helpful as well. I've found. But that's not necessarily like a.

00:13:07 Dr Erin Bowe

First in line

00:13:07 Dr Erin Bowe

Thing that everybody knows

00:13:08 Dr Erin Bowe

About. I'm big on strength finding of using.

00:13:12 Dr Erin Bowe

Yeah. The kind of positive psychology and post traumatic

00:13:14 Dr Erin Bowe

Growth to kind of see what did

00:13:16 Dr Erin Bowe

You do to get through that, you got through it.

00:13:19 Dr Erin Bowe

What can we do to

00:13:20 Dr Erin Bowe

Bolster those strengths and then, of course, there's eye movement desensitisation reprocessing, which is becoming more and more used as well. And it's really, really helpful for.

00:13:29 Dr Erin Bowe

People, when there's gaps, I think in.

00:13:32 Dr Erin Bowe

Your memory and they've.

00:13:33 Dr Erin Bowe

When they 

00:13:33 Dr Erin Bowe

Come to me, they've already

00:13:34 Dr Erin Bowe

Really told their story like.

00:13:36 Dr Erin Bowe

5, 6 or 7 times, sometimes not.

00:13:39 Dr Erin Bowe

Sometimes I'm the first

00:13:39 Dr Erin Bowe

person to receive it. 

00:13:40 Dr Erin Bowe

But more often than not clinical psychs

00:13:41 Dr Erin Bowe

Typically don't work in birth suites

00:13:44 Dr Erin Bowe

And you know, we don't see people on the floor just after they've given birth. We see them after they've talked to XYZ number of people. So sometimes it means trying a few different things before you find the.

00:13:56

Right approach.

00:13:57 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. And one of the things that I was thinking when you were speaking was who are those different people that they might be talking to before they get to you? How does someone find their way to you normally?

00:14:06 Dr Erin Bowe

It just depends. So it depends on whether the experience with the birthing team was positive and helpful or not. I think for some people, it can be really helpful to go back to their midwife and debrief when you have something more like birth regret or little T trauma that can be helpful. And part of my birth trauma training for birth workers is skilling up

00:14:27 Dr Erin Bowe

Those people, so doulas, nurses, midwives, OBs, photographers, 

00:14:31 Dr Erin Bowe

Yoga instructors

00:14:33 Dr Erin Bowe

There are a.

00:14:33 Dr Erin Bowe

Lot of people involved in the perinatal space but often.

00:14:36 Dr Erin Bowe

It would just be who is.

00:14:37 Dr Erin Bowe

Someone I feel.

00:14:37 Dr Erin Bowe

Comfortable talking to.

00:14:39 Dr Erin Bowe

And if that's been helpful and useful, then sometimes I come down the line later on when it's like, OK, there's more to.

00:14:46 Dr Erin Bowe

It than sitting and.

00:14:47 Dr Erin Bowe

Doing a birth debrief. That's a really popular.

00:14:50 Dr Erin Bowe

Intervention, but it's important.

00:14:52 Dr Erin Bowe

For people to understand a birth debrief

00:14:53 Dr Erin Bowe

is not 

00:14:54 Dr Erin Bowe

A stand alone tool. It's not effective as a standalone

00:14:57 Dr Erin Bowe

Tool if you have more complicated.

00:15:00 Dr Erin Bowe

not even necessarily complicated

00:15:01 Dr Erin Bowe

But if you have symptoms that need relief, then we need to target those symptoms and revisiting the story sometimes.

00:15:07 Dr Erin Bowe

Can make it worse.

00:15:09

Other than.

00:15:09 Dr Erin Bowe

Making it better. So we've gotta kind.

00:15:12 Dr Erin Bowe

Of be careful in how we do.

00:15:14 Dr Erin Bowe

Things, but yeah.

00:15:15 Dr Erin Bowe

Absolutely. For most people and most.

00:15:16 Dr Erin Bowe

People will not go on to develop post traumatic.

00:15:18 Dr Erin Bowe

Stress disorder most people.

00:15:20 Dr Erin Bowe

will fit in that sort

00:15:21 Dr Erin Bowe

Of lower end of the continuum. And so child maternal health

00:15:24 Dr Erin Bowe

Nurse, going back to talk to your OB.

00:15:27 Dr Erin Bowe

someone like that that you feel safe with. Very, very different. If you feel there's been obstetric violence, if you've been coerced. If there's been racism and prejudice.

00:15:36 Dr Erin Bowe

That kind of stuff.

00:15:37 Dr Erin Bowe

Then you don't wanna.

00:15:38 Dr Erin Bowe

Be going back to talk to those people necessarily.

00:15:41 Dr Erin Bowe

Because sometimes a birth debrief is confused with

00:15:45 Dr Erin Bowe

Something that's a little bit more like, OK.

00:15:47 Dr Erin Bowe

You are going to sue us. 

00:15:48 Dr Erin Bowe

But it's not actually about your mental well being.

00:15:52 Dr Erin Bowe

And your child's.

00:15:52 Dr Erin Bowe

Well being, it's.

00:15:53 Dr Erin Bowe

Actually, like legal management.

00:15:56 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

00:15:58 Dr Cristina Cavezza

And you also.

00:15:59 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Mentioned something about a questionnaire that people get that it's kind of like a screening for anxiety and depression following the birth. I didn't quite catch the name of that and I'm not sure if listeners would have heard it. Could you repeat that for us and tell us a bit more about that?

00:16:11 Dr Erin Bowe

Yeah, so sometimes it's called the EDPOS I think I just call it the Edinburgh post Natal.

00:16:20 Dr Erin Bowe

something scale. I've forgotten it off the top of my head. 

00:16:22 Dr Erin Bowe

But as routine most women are screened with it by the midwife before and after the birth. 

00:16:26 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. OK. Great. Yeah. And then we you briefly touched on some of the symptoms or that people coming to you will will have symptoms. Could we spend a little bit of time talking about that? What are the signs and symptoms of trauma just generally that apply to what we're speaking about here in the sense of birth trauma?

00:16:46 Dr Erin Bowe

I think for most people.

00:16:47 Dr Erin Bowe

It's that sense that it's still happening.

00:16:50 Dr Erin Bowe

So even though your logical brain knows

00:16:52 Dr Erin Bowe

that the moment has passed, it still feels like it's happening and that can.

00:16:56 Dr Erin Bowe

Be whether you hear.

00:16:56 Dr Erin Bowe

Your baby crying.

00:16:58 Dr Erin Bowe

Whether it's time.

00:16:58 Dr Erin Bowe

To do a feed that.

00:17:00 Dr Erin Bowe

can be a really big trigger

00:17:00 Dr Erin Bowe

Particularly, if there's been breastfeeding trauma that every time that there's things happen, you feel.

00:17:05 Dr Erin Bowe

Like the back there and.

00:17:06 Dr Erin Bowe

The anxiety is just coming up.

00:17:08 Dr Erin Bowe

Your brain doesn't know the difference between something that happened yesterday and 

00:17:10 Dr Erin Bowe

Something that is happening right now, so it feels very much in the moment and some families it's been like not being able to drive past the hospital. 

00:17:18 Dr Erin Bowe

Hearing alarms going off. If you've been, you know, in the hospital for a significant period of time. It's just those little noises of alarms going off that can send physiological alarms going off. I've had women who can't stand a certain colour because it was painted on the walls in the birth suite or where it was on the uniforms on the midwives.

00:17:37 Dr Erin Bowe

So reminders from all of your senses, visual smell is a really powerful one, connected to trauma as well. Certain smells like.

00:17:46 Dr Erin Bowe

Cleaning products or anything else,  smells

00:17:50 Dr Erin Bowe

In general.

00:17:51 Dr Erin Bowe

It can.

00:17:52 Dr Erin Bowe

Be things like nightmares.

00:17:54 Dr Erin Bowe

Flashbacks. Just having those like unrelenting preoccupation with that, and the more you try to stop thinking.

00:18:01 Dr Erin Bowe

About it, the more.

00:18:03 Dr Erin Bowe

You know, it's like feeding the seagulls chips.

00:18:06 Dr Erin Bowe

The more you like

00:18:07 Dr Erin Bowe

Think about those thoughts in terms of not to

00:18:09 Dr Erin Bowe

Think about them, the more you get.

00:18:10 Dr Erin Bowe

So it's an.

00:18:11 Dr Erin Bowe

inability to shut off from it at all. 

00:18:14 Dr Erin Bowe

But for some people, it's.

00:18:15 Dr Erin Bowe

Not necessarily part.

00:18:16 Dr Erin Bowe

Of post traumatic stress criteria in itself, but it's very much.

00:18:19 Dr Erin Bowe

Related it can.

00:18:21 Dr Erin Bowe

Have issues with.

00:18:22 Dr Erin Bowe

Bonding and attachment. So a lot of people, maybe not initially, definitely not necessarily in that first session, but we'll talk about that. They just don't feel that connection which we know is a biologically wired thing. I think particularly if you had a medicalised kind of birth or your babies been whisked

00:18:39 Dr Erin Bowe

Away and you

00:18:40 Dr Erin Bowe

Haven't had a.

00:18:40 Dr Erin Bowe

Chance to hold them.

00:18:42 Dr Erin Bowe

smell them actually come into your body and feel what you're supposed to feel, which is all that oxytocin and love you've.

00:18:49 Dr Erin Bowe

Just been feeling like distress.

00:18:51 Dr Erin Bowe

That can be tricky later on and.

00:18:53 Dr Erin Bowe

It's really important.

00:18:53 Dr Erin Bowe

That we normalise that as well to say.

00:18:55 Dr Erin Bowe

That that happens.

00:18:56 Dr Erin Bowe

To a.

00:18:56 Dr Erin Bowe

Lot of people.

00:18:57 Dr Erin Bowe

But you just handed.

00:18:59 Dr Erin Bowe

This baby, it might as well be.

00:19:00 Dr Erin Bowe

An elephant? What?

00:19:01 Dr Erin Bowe

Is this I have no connection to this.

00:19:03 Dr Erin Bowe

Child whatsoever and.

00:19:04 Dr Erin Bowe

the guilt and 

00:19:04 Dr Erin Bowe

The shame that goes with that is also really, really, really common. So yeah, nightmares, anxiety.

00:19:11 Dr Erin Bowe

Flashbacks, feeling like it's happening right now.

00:19:14 Dr Erin Bowe

For some people it can be anger.

00:19:16 Dr Erin Bowe

Is because underneath anger.

00:19:17 Dr Erin Bowe

Is a lot of fear and a lot of regret. Just.

00:19:21 Dr Erin Bowe

I think I would a lot of women I talked to as well have this, it's.

00:19:24 Dr Erin Bowe

Almost like I call it like the shower fantasy like you stand.

00:19:27 Dr Erin Bowe

In the shower and think of all the things that you.

00:19:29 Dr Erin Bowe

Should have said all the things.

00:19:30 Dr Erin Bowe

You should have.

00:19:30 Dr Erin Bowe

Done differently, all the things you should have that have that partners have that a lot 

00:19:34 Dr Erin Bowe

as well.

00:19:35 Dr Erin Bowe

Of like I should have done something like we can't.

00:19:37 Dr Erin Bowe

That's the bystander effect, right. 

00:19:39

That is important.

00:19:40 Dr Erin Bowe

To think about this for partners as well, which is under any other circumstance where your partner is spoken to, rudely, held down.

00:19:48 Dr Erin Bowe

Had things done against her will your partner would step in and do something right. If a woman was knocked down in the street, people would be there to say what is going on. What are you doing but in birth, it's like stand back, accept it, the doctors are the experts, don't get in the way. So yeah, there's so many multilayered things that go with trauma. 

00:20:07 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yes, yes, absolutely. And when you were speaking, I was wondering about that. Do you see a lot of dads in your practise?

00:20:17 Dr Erin Bowe

No, the short answer is no. Often if they do come, it's because it's been at the strong insistence of their

00:20:21 Dr Erin Bowe

Partner, but it's.

00:20:22 Dr Erin Bowe

Still, culturally, it's the.

00:20:24 Dr Erin Bowe

Same as having post natal

00:20:24 Dr Erin Bowe

depression in dads, it's still not something that.

00:20:27 Dr Erin Bowe

Is like accepted that.

00:20:30 Dr Erin Bowe

This is the thing.

00:20:31 Dr Erin Bowe

I'm used to telling people that vicarious trauma, it's absolutely a 

00:20:33 Dr Erin Bowe

Thing, and I think people.

00:20:35 Dr Erin Bowe

Can relate to that sense of vicarious.

00:20:37 Dr Erin Bowe

Trauma. If you think about.

00:20:39 Dr Erin Bowe

Like something happening to your child, I would rather take a bullet than watch my child be shot. That's a.

00:20:45 Dr Erin Bowe

Very very extreme example, but.

00:20:46 Dr Erin Bowe

I use it because it tends to.

00:20:48 Dr Erin Bowe

Take people's minds. So watching your loved one go through pain and being.

00:20:53 Dr Erin Bowe

Treated horribly is.

00:20:56 Dr Erin Bowe

I'm not saying it's harder to.

00:20:57 Dr Erin Bowe

Watch what I'm saying.

00:20:58 Dr Erin Bowe

There's a whole other layer of trauma there as well knowing that you stood back

00:21:02 Dr Erin Bowe

 and didn't do anything even though logic says.

00:21:04 Dr Erin Bowe

We weren't allowed to do anything, but that instinct that drive to protect. Yeah, it gets shut.

00:21:10 Dr Erin Bowe

Off and that can be very.

00:21:12 Dr Erin Bowe

Confusing for partners to navigate

00:21:15 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when you were speaking, I was thinking about the literature on vicarious trauma. And it is a real thing. Absolutely. And it doesn't just apply when we love someone and we see our loved ones being hurt, it can even apply in our professional work, you know, working with people and hearing stories of trauma over and over again. We can also be affected by that.

00:21:36 Dr Cristina Cavezza

As well.

00:21:37 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Some of the things I was thinking about when you were speaking.

00:21:41 Dr Cristina Cavezza

It reminded me of I've heard, you know, women talk about.

00:21:45 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Women who have given birth to their multiples and unexpected things happened. Talk about things like feeling disconnected.

00:21:51 Dr Cristina Cavezza

From their body.

00:21:53 Dr Cristina Cavezza

During the whole birthing process and then afterwards almost seeing their this is particularly when the babies have spent time in NICU or even in special care nursery

00:22:06 Dr Cristina Cavezza

And seeing that their babies as patients.

00:22:10 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Like actually looking at their babies and not feeling that, you know, initially anyway, not feeling that the babies are theirs, but that the babies are actually just these little patients in the hospital. You know, I wonder if you.

00:22:22 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Could speak about.

00:22:23 Dr Cristina Cavezza

That, and I guess what's the mechanism? What's happening there for these women?

00:22:28 Dr Erin Bowe

I think you can look at it again.

00:22:29 Dr Erin Bowe

The Physiology.

00:22:31 Dr Erin Bowe

Of birth and remembering that.

00:22:32 Dr Erin Bowe

We are mammals. There are certain, I suppose endorphin triggers that are under the ideal circumstances, supposed to fire up like oxytocin. So we know. Sarah Buckley. She's an amazing GP who's done so much good research in this area, but just smelling

00:22:49 Dr Erin Bowe

The baby, like even if you have a sterile birth with all the things like, even if you smell a baby and you can't feel anything.

00:22:57 Dr Erin Bowe

It will light up the oxytocin and that.

00:22:58 Dr Erin Bowe

Helps with attachment and bonding so.

00:23:00 Dr Erin Bowe

There's there's things that.

00:23:01 Dr Erin Bowe

We're not taught.

00:23:04 Dr Erin Bowe

That I think I wish.

00:23:05 Dr Erin Bowe

People could learn to smell.

00:23:06 Dr Erin Bowe

a baby. It's a simple kind

00:23:08 Dr Erin Bowe

Of thing. But if you think about mammals being wired and attachment, if those hormones aren't happening, and I guarantee you they're not, if you're in trauma because trauma will completely shut all of that down, you go into survival mode. It shuts down all the kind of like loving, bonding, attaching hormones and it's.

00:23:26 Dr Erin Bowe

Very, very normal. If you, as I said before, if your baby and babies

00:23:29 Dr Erin Bowe

have been whisked away 

00:23:31 Dr Erin Bowe

and you've barely even had a chance to look at.

00:23:32 Dr Erin Bowe

Them let alone 

00:23:33 Dr Erin Bowe

Touch them and try and connect your brain naturally. Just doesn't really know the difference.

00:23:40 Dr Erin Bowe

So it's a.

00:23:41 Dr Erin Bowe

Process that takes.

00:23:42 Dr Erin Bowe

Time and I.

00:23:43 Dr Erin Bowe

Think for a lot of people, it's.

00:23:44 Dr Erin Bowe

A protective thing as well.

00:23:46 Dr Erin Bowe

Sometimes it's actually.

00:23:47 Dr Erin Bowe

More on partners. I often hear about talking.

00:23:49 Dr Erin Bowe

About this is.

00:23:50 Dr Erin Bowe

That I don't wanna attach, I'm afraid.

00:23:53 Dr Erin Bowe

And so when you're living in constant.

00:23:55 Dr Erin Bowe

Fear of, you know, alarms going off things being wrong. It's sometimes with that.

00:24:00 Dr Erin Bowe

That's the thing, it's being alone

00:24:01 Dr Erin Bowe

At night that.

00:24:02 Dr Erin Bowe

Your shadow doesn't actually want to acknowledge because I don't.

00:24:04 Dr Erin Bowe

Actually want to bond with.

00:24:05 Dr Erin Bowe

This baby or these babies because I'm afraid.

00:24:08 Dr Erin Bowe

Of what it's.

00:24:08 Dr Erin Bowe

Gonna cost me if I lose them.

00:24:11 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, it's really powerful when you put it that way. I can, you know, I can really sense how someone would be apprehensive, you know, about even just holding their babies, if that was taking place psychologically. And I guess physiologically as well as you spoke about you.

00:24:31 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Know the hormones.

00:24:32 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Not having that time to connect what or, you know, attach in the traditional way if you like, or the ideal way I should say.

00:24:40 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Being able to.

00:24:40 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Hold your baby and smell your baby and allowing for that oxytocin to kick in and do its thing.

00:24:47 Dr Cristina Cavezza

What are some of

00:24:48 Dr Cristina Cavezza

The strategies that you recommend to parents if they're struggling with things like this in terms of attachment and bonding that results from birth trauma.

00:24:58 Dr Erin Bowe

It's starting slow. It's starting slow and making sure that you yourself and your.

00:25:03 Dr Erin Bowe

Own body is OK with touch because.

00:25:05 Dr Erin Bowe

It's a big ask sometimes when your body has.

00:25:08 Dr Erin Bowe

Felt like a vessel that has had things done.

00:25:11 Dr Erin Bowe

Do it rather than the source of love.

00:25:13 Dr Erin Bowe

And nourishment and joy

00:25:15 Dr Erin Bowe

And all that sort of stuff. So.

00:25:17 Dr Erin Bowe

For some people, it's starting

00:25:18 Dr Erin Bowe

Really. Really. Really.

00:25:19 Dr Erin Bowe

Slow by being OK with touch and being touched and just spending. It's like we're talking like, not rocket science, but also nothing like miraculous. But also practising gazing at your child. 

00:25:32 Dr Erin Bowe

And just gazing

00:25:33 Dr Erin Bowe

into their eyes. 

00:25:34 Dr Erin Bowe

And doing it for short periods of time because babies can only take so much sort of simulation anyway, singing, you know, we know that singing is great for the babies nerve and settling anxiety. So just all those things being allowing yourself to bring in those things that you.

00:25:49 Dr Erin Bowe

Imagine that you would do.

00:25:51 Dr Erin Bowe

You know.

00:25:51 Dr Erin Bowe

Holding your baby's.

00:25:52 Dr Erin Bowe

Hand smelling them looking into their.

00:25:55 Dr Erin Bowe

Eyes, I think it's a hurdle sometimes for people to get.

00:25:57 Dr Erin Bowe

Through it and.

00:25:58 Dr Erin Bowe

What you're talking about before with that?

00:26:01 Dr Erin Bowe

I didn't see. I mean, my husband is an identical.

00:26:03 Dr Erin Bowe

Twin there's a story like in his.

00:26:05 Dr Erin Bowe

Family about how his brother was the second one and.

00:26:08 Dr Erin Bowe

They didn't think he was gonna make.

00:26:09 Dr Erin Bowe

It so they didn't name him well.

00:26:11 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I want to say.

00:26:12 Dr Erin Bowe

Like a week. I'm sorry if

00:26:13 Dr Erin Bowe

That's not true, for any of his family who is listening 

00:26:15 Dr Erin Bowe

But they didn't think he was going to make it. So they didn't name him. 

00:26:18 Dr Erin Bowe

He was baby b for quite, for 

00:26:20 Dr Erin Bowe

About a week I.

00:26:20 Dr Erin Bowe

Think. But you would never know now. But it's one of those. Yeah, it's often stayed with me because I think if they had been born, maybe even a couple of years earlier, so they were born in the early 80s, if they had been born in the 70s. They probably wouldn't have made it. They were about 10 weeks premature very.

00:26:34 Dr Erin Bowe

Very tiny. So you.

00:26:36 Dr Erin Bowe

Think about premature. So my daughter.

00:26:38 Dr Erin Bowe

Is 5 kilos.

00:26:39 Dr Erin Bowe

She weighs more.

00:26:40 Dr Erin Bowe

Than both of them.

00:26:43 Dr Erin Bowe

But I think she makes up 

00:26:44 Dr Erin Bowe

the equivalent of like 2 1/2 of them. So yeah, you

00:26:48 Dr Erin Bowe

Can't predict these.

00:26:49 Dr Erin Bowe

Things right, it's just.

00:26:50 Dr Erin Bowe

I think that's part of it.

00:26:51 Dr Erin Bowe

Too, it's trying to find the lightness in things not.

00:26:54 Dr Erin Bowe

Making light of the 

00:26:56 Dr Erin Bowe

Trauma. But I know for.

00:26:57 Dr Erin Bowe

Me personally like trying to.

00:26:58 Dr Erin Bowe

Find the light through this and find some.

00:27:00 Dr Erin Bowe

Humour it helps.

00:27:02 Dr Erin Bowe

relieve some of the tension. 

00:27:04 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yes. So when you were talking, I was thinking about this visual imagery of the light at the end of the tunnel. And, you know, often our mind wants to stop at the darkest part. You know, that's where we get caught up in. But when we're going through something difficult and challenging, it's better to kind of keep going until we get to the light at the end of the tunnel. And it made me think about this idea that you mentioned that I'm not sure if listeners.

00:27:27 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Might know what it means. The idea of post traumatic growth, and I wonder if you could explain a little.

00:27:33 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Bit about what you.

00:27:34 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Mean by that, and it's particularly in.

00:27:35 Dr Cristina Cavezza

The context of birth trauma.

00:27:38 Dr Erin Bowe

Yeah. So the word that people.

00:27:39 Dr Erin Bowe

Usually are familiar with.

00:27:41 Dr Erin Bowe

Is resilience, which means you get through something hard and.

00:27:44 Dr Erin Bowe

You kind of go back to.

00:27:45 Dr Erin Bowe

Where you were before. So it's kind of like a status quo equilibrium and things kind of restored and you feel OK. Post traumatic growth is interesting though, like it's one of my favourite things to talk about because it you have this level.

00:27:57 Dr Erin Bowe

Of growth that you just didn't.

00:27:58 Dr Erin Bowe

Think was possible and so it did that.

00:28:01 Dr Erin Bowe

That meaning that.

00:28:02 Dr Erin Bowe

You make behind the event you wouldn't have.

00:28:04 Dr Erin Bowe

Chosen it I.

00:28:05 Dr Erin Bowe

Wouldn't have chosen to have two traumatic births. I don't think I would have chosen to have a 5 kilo baby. Maybe, but you know, I suppose there's very small piece that comes out of that. It's like.

00:28:14 Dr Erin Bowe

I had no

00:28:15 Dr Erin Bowe

Idea that I could cope at that level, like physically.

00:28:18 Dr Erin Bowe

Mentally, everything it has stretched me. Nothing had stretched me.

00:28:22 Dr Erin Bowe

Like that I can't.

00:28:23 Dr Erin Bowe

Imagine going through anything like that ever again, but I guess if I did I.

00:28:27 Dr Erin Bowe

Know that there's an inner.

00:28:29 Dr Erin Bowe

reserve there somewhere. So it's about taking through, I guess reflection and thinking, OK, how did

00:28:35 Dr Erin Bowe

They get through this? What am I gonna

00:28:36 Dr Erin Bowe

Make it mean? I think

00:28:38 Dr Erin Bowe

For a lot of it, and definitely in those early days.

00:28:41 Dr Erin Bowe

How have what's called the extended pity party

00:28:44 Dr Erin Bowe

Where you go through.

00:28:45 Dr Erin Bowe

All of the things that.

00:28:46 Dr Erin Bowe

Like I should have done this. It means I'm broken. It means all of that.

00:28:49 Dr Erin Bowe

I think that's a.

00:28:49 Dr Erin Bowe

Normal part of trauma and I think.

00:28:52 Dr Erin Bowe

It can be helpful so.

00:28:53 Dr Erin Bowe

Go into some of that ruminating and go through all of that, but then at some point you kind of go right and where's the fullstop? What else am I going to make it mean? So it's finding the strength.  Like, what did you discover about yourself that you didn't know you could do? For a lot of people, it inspires them to go on and do.

00:29:12 Dr Erin Bowe

Amazing things with their life.

00:29:13 Dr Erin Bowe

Particularly if it's.

00:29:15 Dr Erin Bowe

Spreading the light.

00:29:16 Dr Erin Bowe

You know, it's like, OK, I found.

00:29:18 Dr Erin Bowe

This little light, like that's how I kind of think.

00:29:19 Dr Erin Bowe

Of it for.

00:29:20 Dr Erin Bowe

Me. It's like when.

00:29:20 Dr Erin Bowe

I found this little pocket of light.

00:29:21 Dr Erin Bowe

For myself, how can I be the lighthouse.

00:29:24 Dr Erin Bowe

Then and then spread.

00:29:25 Dr Erin Bowe

That to other.

00:29:26 Dr Erin Bowe

People, which I would.

00:29:27 Dr Erin Bowe

Not have done in a million years. I probably.

00:29:29 Dr Erin Bowe

Would have still helped people with birth trauma.

00:29:31 Dr Erin Bowe

As part of perinatal but 

00:29:32 Dr Erin Bowe

I wouldn't have had the.

00:29:33 Dr Erin Bowe

Impact of like. Oh well.

00:29:35 Dr Erin Bowe

I've actually been through this.

00:29:36 Dr Erin Bowe

Myself, how did I

00:29:38

Get through that.

00:29:39 Dr Erin Bowe

Because it certainly wasn't just time will heal all wounds and things get better. There's like particular things that had to get me to that point of

00:29:46 Dr Erin Bowe

going what am I going to make of this?

00:29:49 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, it sounds like there were a lot of lessons you learned about yourself and your own experience. Yeah. And if that's helped you now help others with some similar experience.

00:30:01 Dr Erin Bowe

I think something in it had to come out.

00:30:03 Dr Erin Bowe

Of me, so I.

00:30:03 Dr Erin Bowe

Kind of channelled that into work, I suppose, which was useful in the sense that, like.

00:30:10 Dr Erin Bowe

I wrote a book. I did that when 

00:30:11 Dr Erin Bowe

My daughter was still tiny.

00:30:12 Dr Erin Bowe

I look back and I'm 

00:30:13 Dr Erin Bowe

Like I don't know how I did.

00:30:14 Dr Erin Bowe

That, like I had a baby in a carrier jiggling in the kitchen.

00:30:17 Dr Erin Bowe

Bench and I wrote a book because I had to.

00:30:19 Dr Erin Bowe

Come out of.

00:30:20 Dr Erin Bowe

Me, I developed a course, then I developed another.

00:30:24 Dr Erin Bowe

course. There's all sorts of resources.

00:30:26 Dr Erin Bowe

Out there that I've created. And I'm one of many

00:30:29 Dr Erin Bowe

I'm not special, but it's like there's something in me that 

00:30:31 Dr Erin Bowe

had to come out.

00:30:33 Dr Erin Bowe

And it's come.

00:30:33 Dr Erin Bowe

Out and it seems to have helped some.

00:30:35 Dr Erin Bowe

People. So.

00:30:35 Dr Erin Bowe

That's something good that's come out.

00:30:37 Dr Erin Bowe

Of it, you know, my daughters get to.

00:30:39 Dr Erin Bowe

See their name in a book. 

00:30:40 Dr Erin Bowe

Well, that's because.

00:30:41 Dr Erin Bowe

of you that I wrote this book. Thank you very much. 

00:30:46 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I love that because you know your children often. People talk about their children being their source of inspiration and you know, I know for myself, my own matrescence journey certainly led me to, you know, create this podcast as an example, right. So I just love that you turned what some people would say is a negative experience into something.

00:31:05 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Actually really quite remarkable and really wonderful for the community of mothers.

00:31:12 Dr Cristina Cavezza

who may not know where to go to when.

00:31:14 Dr Cristina Cavezza

You know something like this happens to them.

00:31:17 Dr Erin Bowe

Yeah, and that's often how it.

00:31:18 Dr Erin Bowe

Goes you become an expert in the thing. You speak to

00:31:21 Dr Erin Bowe

any parent whose child

00:31:22 Dr Erin Bowe

Has had an illness an

00:31:24 Dr Erin Bowe

Injury, disability they become the expert.

00:31:28 Dr Erin Bowe

And I have one of those children too.

00:31:29 Dr Erin Bowe

Who's got, like, a really, really rare genetic

00:31:32 Dr Erin Bowe

Disorder. It's a

00:31:33 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Ohh wow.

00:31:33 Dr Erin Bowe

New mutation doesn't really impact her life.

00:31:36 Dr Erin Bowe

Pretty much, but.

00:31:37 Dr Erin Bowe

It's like you become an expert, but you.

00:31:39 Dr Erin Bowe

Know more about it than every other medical.

00:31:40 Dr Erin Bowe

Person that you're likely to see.

00:31:44 Dr Erin Bowe

So sometimes if there's more things there, but I never would

00:31:47 Dr Erin Bowe

have known about this

00:31:47 Dr Erin Bowe

In my life before now like 

00:31:50 Dr Erin Bowe

I'm the

00:31:50 Dr Erin Bowe

go to person. 

00:31:51 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yes, yeah, I'd love for us maybe to end the conversation with just some practical tips or some advice that you would give to multiple birth families that.

00:32:02 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Parents themselves, who may have gone through a difficult or challenging birth experience and are wondering if they have trauma or you know, they recognise, maybe that they're struggling. What can

00:32:13 Dr Cristina Cavezza

they do?

00:32:15 Dr Erin Bowe

It is tricky.

00:32:16 Dr Erin Bowe

It is tricky. So I think the first thing

00:32:19 Dr Erin Bowe

That's usually helpful.

00:32:20 Dr Erin Bowe

Is just to allow everything and everything.

00:32:22 Dr Erin Bowe

All the thoughts, all the feelings that the 

00:32:25 Dr Erin Bowe

More that you try to squash them down and push.

00:32:27 Dr Erin Bowe

Them away the more

00:32:27 Dr Erin Bowe

of them you're going to get. It's that ironic process theory that we talk about with clients. Sometimes it's like if you try

00:32:33 Dr Erin Bowe

Not to think about pink elephants.

00:32:34 Dr Erin Bowe

And you tell yourself not.

00:32:35 Dr Erin Bowe

To think about it.

00:32:36 Dr Erin Bowe

You are going to think

00:32:36 Dr Erin Bowe

About it, so allowing some space some.

00:32:39 Dr Erin Bowe

Time to just have.

00:32:41 Dr Erin Bowe

All the thoughts.

00:32:41 Dr Erin Bowe

All the conversations, all the ideas without.

00:32:44 Dr Erin Bowe

Saying oh God.

00:32:44 Dr Erin Bowe

I shouldn't think.

00:32:45 Dr Erin Bowe

That. Another big one I hear a lot of this like there's a thought and there's uh, but I should be so grateful because I've.

00:32:49 Dr Erin Bowe

Got a healthy

00:32:50 Dr Erin Bowe

Baby, which is why I called my book more than

00:32:52 Dr Erin Bowe

A healthy baby.

00:32:53 Dr Erin Bowe

Because it's like that is.

00:32:54 Dr Erin Bowe

Not the gold standard, it's.

00:32:55 Dr Erin Bowe

Nice to have a healthy baby, but we also need 

00:32:57 Dr Erin Bowe

Healthy parents, so allowing all of that without feeling.

00:33:01 Dr Erin Bowe

the need to 

00:33:01 Dr Erin Bowe

Say Oh yeah but, right, or compare

00:33:04 Dr Erin Bowe

That's another thing. Uh, but.

00:33:05 Dr Erin Bowe

We didn't have it as bad as.

00:33:06 Dr Erin Bowe

Someone down the street or just allow your experience to be your experience. But so starting with that the next.

00:33:13 Dr Erin Bowe

Thing is trying.

00:33:13 Dr Erin Bowe

To integrate it, trying to find the pockets of information that fit well, the pockets, often with trauma where there's been dissociation, there's often big blanks, but if you can give your brain a story with the beginning and middle and an end.

00:33:26 Dr Erin Bowe

Even without all the details completely filled out.

00:33:30 Dr Erin Bowe

Things will settle a little bit the.

00:33:32 Dr Erin Bowe

Brain tends to overreact, and I say overreact, not to say it's an overreaction. But.

00:33:36 Dr Erin Bowe

I mean it's extra activity.

00:33:39 Dr Erin Bowe

Maybe get?

00:33:39 Dr Erin Bowe

With my language there but.

00:33:41 Dr Erin Bowe

Giving you the story to sort of.

00:33:43 Dr Erin Bowe

Put into things into context.

00:33:45 Dr Erin Bowe

And then from there eventually.

00:33:47 Dr Erin Bowe

Not like I can't put a time stamp on it.

00:33:50 Dr Erin Bowe

Like finding some meaning, what are you going to

00:33:52 Dr Erin Bowe

Make it mean about yourself. You can choose to.

00:33:54 Dr Erin Bowe

Say that you're broken.

00:33:56 Dr Erin Bowe

And that you did things all.

00:33:57 Dr Erin Bowe

Wrong or you can choose to go well and.

00:33:59 Dr Erin Bowe

Strength. I'm here.

00:34:01 Dr Erin Bowe

I did the best that I could.

00:34:02 Dr Erin Bowe

Often that's a useful kind of just affirmation there in and of itself. I did

00:34:06 Dr Erin Bowe

The best that I could.

00:34:08 Dr Erin Bowe

I did the best that I could, with the tools and the information and circumstances that I had. So from there, there's all sorts of tools, strategies, people to talk to, I mean how long is a piece of string? I think even just the starting point there, the having compassion for yourself is really important.

00:34:27 Dr Erin Bowe

And finding the strength, even if it's just.

00:34:29 Dr Erin Bowe

One thing that you can go, OK, I.

00:34:31 Dr Erin Bowe

Did that OK ish. And then we'll go from there.

00:34:35 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think it's really important to build in some kind of positive.

00:34:41 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I guess what I would call a memory network, you know, building in like what did I do that was positive out of all of this? So what am I doing even now coming out of the other side of it? You know that's positive and and that can be helpful to reframe, can't it?

00:34:56 Dr Erin Bowe

Yeah. And even if positive is a tricky get to. 

00:34:59 Dr Erin Bowe

Sometimes even neutral, like sometimes I talk to people who are so.

00:35:03 Dr Erin Bowe

Shattered by this experience that.

00:35:05 Dr Erin Bowe

the best that they can get to

00:35:06 Dr Erin Bowe

Is you did the best that.

00:35:07 Dr Erin Bowe

You could because you love your child. 

00:35:09 Dr Erin Bowe

And if that means you're stuck.

00:35:10 Dr Erin Bowe

With ah but I shouldn't have.

00:35:11 Dr Erin Bowe

Done this and they whisked them.

00:35:12 Dr Erin Bowe

Away and this happened. And that happens like you.

00:35:14 Dr Erin Bowe

Made the decision that you made based on love for your child.

00:35:17 Dr Erin Bowe

And that's doing.

00:35:18 Dr Erin Bowe

The best that you can, so yeah.

00:35:20 Dr Erin Bowe

Even finding the neutral things.

00:35:23 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, I totally agree with that. Another thing that you were saying that I think is so important to is not comparing yourself to others. You know, I know even for myself, I did that a lot too, when I had premature babies. And I would.

00:35:34 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Say oh, but.

00:35:35 Dr Cristina Cavezza

How lucky am I? Because they both survived, you know, and I think a lot of multiple birth parents do that. You know, they almost feel guilt.

00:35:43 Dr Cristina Cavezza

About about feeling bad about their birthing experience because their babies survive like that. That's the benchmark that at least they survived. That's all I could have hoped for. Yeah. Which is such a, you know, you think about it. Such kind of.

00:35:55 Dr Cristina Cavezza

A sad way of.

00:35:57 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I guess measuring your birthing experience.

00:36:00 Dr Erin Bowe

Also, health in general, right? So that like I.

00:36:03 Dr Erin Bowe

Wouldn't say that.

00:36:04 Dr Erin Bowe

People like I think I've said this.

00:36:05 Dr Erin Bowe

On every single podcast, but like that's.

00:36:07 Dr Erin Bowe

The basement. It's not the.

00:36:09 Dr Erin Bowe

Ceiling, like the healthy living baby, is not.

00:36:11 Dr Erin Bowe

the ceiling, it's the basement that you need to.

00:36:14 Dr Erin Bowe

Be able.

00:36:14 Dr Erin Bowe

there is 

00:36:15 Dr Erin Bowe

So much more.

00:36:16 Dr Erin Bowe

to health. So

00:36:18 Dr Erin Bowe

Much more to.

00:36:18 Dr Erin Bowe

Health. Maternal health like we could go on and on and on. 

00:36:22 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yes, we could, couldn't we? So, Erin, I'd love for you to just let us know where people can find out more about you. We're definitely going to put all the links to your books and the podcast in the show notes. But if people were wanting, you know, to find out more about your services or how they can get in touch with a perinatal psychologist, where would they go?

00:36:41 Dr Erin Bowe

For me, it's really simple. I don't use social media anymore. It's one place it's my

00:36:44 Dr Erin Bowe

website. www.doctorerin.com.au

00:36:48 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Love it. Great.

00:36:49 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Great. Thank you so much. Well, thank you so much for your time today. It was a pleasure chatting with you.

00:36:55 Dr Erin Bowe

Oh same. Thank you. 

00:36:59 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you'd like what you've heard, then please follow and leave a review so that other expectant and current parents of multiples like yourself can find this podcast and the valuable information it contains.

00:37:12 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I'd be so very grateful if you left a review and share this with anyone you think could benefit from listening. If you have a particular topic you'd like me to cover on this podcast, feel free to reach out to me via my website. fiercekindmama.com New episodes are released every second Wednesday, so we'll see you back here real soon.

00:37:32 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Any advice and information in this podcast is general only and has been prepared without taking into account your particular circumstances and needs. For tailored individualised advice, please consult

00:37:46 Dr Cristina Cavezza

with a qualified professional.