Empowering Motherhood: A Holistic, Chinese Medicine Approach with Nadja Dinneen

Join Dr Cristina for an enlightening conversation with Nadja Dinneen, a seasoned acupuncturist with over 15 years of expertise in Women's Health, pregnancy support, birth, and postpartum care. Nadja's approach, deeply rooted in Chinese medicine philosophy, offers a refreshing perspective on women's well-being.

In this episode, Nadja discusses her passion for Chinese Medicine. She delves into the intricacies of pulse diagnosis, revealing how it provides a window into a woman's overall health. By considering the individual's circumstances, Nadja tailors her treatments to harmonize Yin and Yang, balancing energy and nourishing the body.

Nadja's insights into Chi, the vital life force, offers a holistic view of health. She emphasizes the importance of proactive care and the profound impact it can have on a woman's overall well-being.

Nadja sheds light on the often overlooked postpartum period, highlighting the need for increased support and acknowledgment for mothers during this crucial time. Her perspective challenges societal norms, advocating for a shift in how we perceive and value motherhood.

Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of Chinese medicine's transformative potential in women's health, and discover how Nadja's approach helps to empower mothers to prioritize their own well-being for the betterment of their families and communities.

You can connect with Nadja here:

Email: hello@nadjasfamilyacupuncture.com
Website:
www.nadjasfamilyacupuncture.com

Thanks for listening! If you are a soon-to-be or current parent of multiples, be sure to head over to my website http://www.fiercekindmama.com to get my FREE resources designed specifically for you!

Be sure to follow me on Instagram and Facebook too.

Credits:
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/aylex/with-you
License code: YLMJTQCPKRANEOVB

Transcript

00:00:06 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Welcome to the Fierce Kind Mama of Multiples podcast. This podcast is for anyone raising multiples, twins, triplets or more. I speak to inspiring parents of multiples who have healed from unexpected pregnancies and birthing experiences and who candidly share the highs and lows of raising multiples.

00:00:27 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I also speak to the.

00:00:28 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Professionals that work with multiple birth families.

00:00:31 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Together we cover the practicalities of raising more than one baby at a time, as well as enhancing the emotional well being of caregivers and children alike. Come join us as we laugh, cry, and share our personal and professional wisdom on all things multiples. I'm your host, Dr Cristina Cavezza

00:00:51 Dr Cristina Cavezza

And I am a fierce, kind mama of multiples. 

00:00:58 Dr Cristina Cavezza

On today's episode, I'm joined by Nadja Dinneen. Nadja has been an acupuncturist for 15 years, mainly specialising in Women's Health, pregnancy support, birth and postpartum care. A few years after the birth of her twin girls, she became inspired to support women in birth and got her certification to be a doula.

00:01:18 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Running a busy clinical practise in two locations and trying to be on call for births took its toll, which led her to feel depleted and she realised she needed to pull back. Soon after this she came across the work of Amy Taylor Kabbaz who was talking and teaching about matrescence, the rite of passage a woman goes through into motherhood.

00:01:36 Dr Cristina Cavezza

This was the beginning of Nadja's journey into understanding the phenomenal transformation of motherhood, which continues to be her source of healing for herself and for her clients. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Nadja, and if you'd like to connect further with her, you can find her details in the podcast show notes. So, I'd love to welcome.

00:01:56 Dr Cristina Cavezza

On today's episode, Nadja. Nadja, so lovely to have you here. 

00:02:00 Nadja Dinneen

Thank you so much for having me. It’s wonderful.

00:02:02 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation for a couple of reasons. So we've met through a motherhood studies course that we're doing, a motherhood sociology certification, which I know I.

00:02:13 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Have found very useful.

00:02:15 Dr Cristina Cavezza

And I was really interested in hearing more about your story in particular, because I know that you are also a mother of twins.

00:02:23 Dr Cristina Cavezza

But also your area of work is interesting to me, but admittedly something I don't know very much about, so I thought it would be great to have you on the show and talk about the work that you.

00:02:34 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Do and how you.

00:02:34 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Support mothers. Why don't we start with you just.

00:02:37 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Telling us a bit about yourself and your multiple birth journey. Yeah, well.

00:02:43 Nadja Dinneen

Where to begin? My work has been around supporting mums in Chinese medicine for about 15 years now.

00:02:53 Nadja Dinneen

And I was drawn into supporting Mums because I had some friends during those Uni days that were pregnant.

00:03:02 Nadja Dinneen

And I had.

00:03:03 Nadja Dinneen

You know some foundation knowledge to be able to practise. And so I was able to help them mainly in those last few weeks to prepare for birth and then to induce when they were overdue. And I got such great results and such great feedback that I thought this could.

00:03:21 Nadja Dinneen

Be a really good.

00:03:22 Nadja Dinneen

area to specialise in and naturally because I was in my late 20s early 30s and wanted to become a mum myself. So once I graduated I really did start to just hone in on Women's Health.

00:03:39 Nadja Dinneen

And how Chinese medicine can support a woman through her whole life, but mainly was targeting around fertility, preconception, pregnancy, birth and postpartum. And once I had my own daughters, I realised how much of a gap there was in postpartum. And that's.

00:03:59 Nadja Dinneen

Probably maybe 3-4 years into my own motherhood journey. I came across the word matrescence.

00:04:06 Nadja Dinneen

Matrescence is the word to describe the transition for a woman into motherhood and how motherhood affects.

00:04:13 Nadja Dinneen

All areas of her.

00:04:14 Nadja Dinneen

Life and that really helped me personally understand what had been happening for me that I felt it was such a silent part.

00:04:26 Nadja Dinneen

Of my world.

00:04:27 Nadja Dinneen

And so that's what then led me on to study with Sophie and look at motherhood through a sociological lens. And as you know, through studying with me, it's integrating that at this point that it's quite personal experience as well as professional. And how do we blend the two together?

00:04:48 Nadja Dinneen

Is where I'm at at the moment.

00:04:49 Nadja Dinneen

So that's my work side and then my motherhood side, having twins has been quite a journey. So where would you like me to start with that?

00:05:00 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, I guess there's so much that I'd love to kind of pick apart of what you just said. So maybe before we go into your journey, your multiple birth pregnancy and that whole process and that journey, why don't we pick apart a little bit about some of the

00:05:13 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Things that you mentioned because I think there we could really dive deep and I know I'm quite interested in hearing more about some of that things you were speaking about particularly Chinese medicine, how that is supportive of a women's journey from preconception to postpartum. Could you speak

00:05:34 Dr Cristina Cavezza

A little bit more.

00:05:34

About that?

00:05:35 Nadja Dinneen

Yeah, I love to because.

00:05:37 Nadja Dinneen

Been practising for so long now, deeply passionate about how Chinese medicine and its philosophy supports a woman instead of the Western principles that we don't treat the individual really through Western medicine. It's a blanket. What I love so much about Chinese medicine is that.

00:05:57 Nadja Dinneen

We treat the individual.

00:05:59 Nadja Dinneen

We consider this woman that comes to me, who wants to conceive. You know, we look.

00:06:04 Nadja Dinneen

At what's happening for her in her circumstances, rather than let's just get some bloods and have a look at hormones, for example. You know, so from the Chinese medicine perspective, we're going to look at first we begin by feeling a woman's pulse and what we can read from the pulse. There's 28 different types of pulses.

00:06:26 Nadja Dinneen

We can feel so this pulse in the radial position gives us so much information about how organs are functioning, about how much blood there is in the actual vessel that you're feeling.

00:06:38 Nadja Dinneen

So once we've got information through the pulse, we look at the tongue and that also can tell us about organ function. So we use these diagnostic tools to help break down what is actually happening for that individual and then we start to use the language of Chinese medicine around Yin and Yang.

00:07:00 Nadja Dinneen

Has she got more heat signs? Is she running a little hotter and do we need

00:07:05 Nadja Dinneen

To nourish her.

00:07:06 Nadja Dinneen

Yin. And so the yin is the coolant. And so by using specific points that are cooling points and water points, then we can support and nourish her Yin. Or is she really cold? And do we need to build her Yang? Because she's got perhaps a constitution from her

00:07:27 Nadja Dinneen

Parents, it could be also your environment.

00:07:30 Nadja Dinneen

So there's a principle around prenatal gene. What we get from our parents, it's a bit like genetics and post Natal gene. What we do in our lifestyle, where we live, what foods we eat, what exercise we do or may not do mentally and emotionally, there's a big part that plays on.

00:07:50 Nadja Dinneen

The physiological body as well, so it's a very holistic medicine and we aim to balance that Yin and Yang. 

00:08:00 Nadja Dinneen

OK, we aim to build the blood and nourish the blood and focus a lot on chi. So Chi in Chinese medicine is energy or prana in yogic philosophy. So we want to support her chi and her energy. It's a bit like.

00:08:20 Nadja Dinneen

A tree and the tree needs to have the right environment to grow and to.

00:08:26 Nadja Dinneen

Flourish. So we look at the soil and the environment that's in the soil. How much nutrients does the soil have? Do we need to add nutrients to the soil so the tree can grow? I do use that analogy for a woman who maybe is up in her head a lot and she needs to ground down through her body.

00:08:46 Nadja Dinneen

And so.

00:08:47 Nadja Dinneen

By bringing awareness to our connection to nature, because fundamentally we come from nature, this can help her start to see herself through that perspective. So yeah, once we break down those concepts a little bit and begin to.

00:09:07 Nadja Dinneen

Support her in an acupuncture session. I talk a lot in the session, so she understands.

00:09:12 Nadja Dinneen

What I'm doing.

00:09:12 Nadja Dinneen

And from my experience, women really enjoy that. They want to know what's happening, and usually it depends on what we are treating and say. We're treating her through her pregnancy, maybe that first trimester. She's coming for a lot of nausea and my own personal experience of having terrible.

00:09:32 Nadja Dinneen

Nausea with my twin girls it.

00:09:35 Nadja Dinneen

Was just through the roof.

00:09:37 Nadja Dinneen

Sometimes it works and I lost faith because it did work for me through my pregnancy, which was so funny because I'd worked a lot with women before my own pregnancy and had great results. But it didn't work for me. Whether that's a twin thing, whether that's a me thing, I don't know. It really is an individual thing.

00:09:56 Nadja Dinneen

Some people respond really well, some people, not so much. So I guess that's for everyone. And for every modality, everyone's going to respond differently.

00:10:06 Nadja Dinneen

But yeah, generally I would have to only treat a woman 3-4 times, and you know the balls rolling and she's starting to make some changes in her life and starting to feel the effects of that, you know, combination of sessions. And then what I would prescribe is usually just to have a break for a while, second trimester.

00:10:27 Nadja Dinneen

Maybe there's some as bubs growing and expanding as the body is starting to change. Maybe we need to do a little bit of support to help with the pelvis. And then usually it's at that transition into third trimester that I recommend in Chinese medicine talks about supporting that hormonal shift that happens in that

00:10:46 Nadja Dinneen

Transition to 3rd trimester. But then there's been.

00:10:49 Nadja Dinneen

A lot of research.

00:10:50 Nadja Dinneen

To support women in that prep for labour, which has been a big part of what I've helped women with, and if we can help a woman become much more grounded in their body and calm out of her head and connected to her

00:11:05 Nadja Dinneen

Body and a lot about awareness around how to prepare for birth through that pelvic area.

00:11:11 Nadja Dinneen

And often I'll be treating a woman sideline so we can get into the hips and the pelvis and create space, and then she will naturally become more prepared. Her body is more prepared, just like eating the right foods, being in the right environment.

00:11:31 Nadja Dinneen

Sitting with someone that makes you feel really nurtured and calm, and therefore then more inclined to birth naturally and to go into labour naturally. So that's always been a big part of why I love the work that I.

00:11:44 Nadja Dinneen

Do is a big.

00:11:46 Nadja Dinneen

Vaginal birth advocate.

00:11:48 Nadja Dinneen

Really. So many studies to support.

00:11:50 Nadja Dinneen

The benefits of vaginal birth, so hope.

00:11:53 Nadja Dinneen

That gives you a little.

00:11:54 Nadja Dinneen

Bit of a brief understanding.

00:11:56 Nadja Dinneen

Of how acupuncture can help, particularly during pregnancy.

00:11:59 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, that was fascinating. And there were so many things that I.

00:12:01 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Wanted to ask you.

00:12:03 Dr Cristina Cavezza

As you were talking with. Well, I don't want to interrupt so, but even just from like the very beginning when you were saying

00:12:08 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Being, looking at the tongue and being able to understand organ functioning, so can.

00:12:14 Dr Cristina Cavezza

You tell us.

00:12:15 Dr Cristina Cavezza

About that. Like what do you mean?

00:12:16 Nadja Dinneen

Yeah, sure. When you look at somebody's tongue, the tongue is broken into sections. So the tip of the tongue is what they say is the heart area. So if the tip is very red.

00:12:29 Nadja Dinneen

Then that can indicate that she's got a lot of emotions going on, and therefore then if it's not red, that's not really a sign that there's anything particularly out of balance in her heart, the sides of the tongue reflect the liver.

00:12:44 Nadja Dinneen

So often I will see it's very pale for a woman during pregnancy. She might be quite iron deficient, or in the terms of Chinese medicines, blood deficiency. So I look for that. Or it may be the opposite. Maybe very red, very hot. So she's got lots of heat going on and to support her mentally, emotionally.

00:13:04 Nadja Dinneen

Physically, spiritually I need.

00:13:05 Nadja Dinneen

To clear that heat.

00:13:07 Nadja Dinneen

So again, the specific points I would choose to.

00:13:09 Nadja Dinneen

Help clear that heat.

00:13:11 Nadja Dinneen

And then behind the heart section, we have the.

00:13:14 Nadja Dinneen

Lungs and behind the lungs is the stomach, and then behind that is the kidneys. So when there are cracks in the tongue, when the tongue is quite dry, it's just like the earth. You know, when we see the.

00:13:28 Nadja Dinneen

Earth. It's dry. She needs water. She needs moisture. So again. Yeah, we'll choose those points that.

00:13:35 Nadja Dinneen

We can help.

00:13:36 Nadja Dinneen

Replenish the Yin.

00:13:38 Nadja Dinneen

And then we look at coating so often someone who is eating lots of ice cream and cold raw foods and is a bit sluggish with their digestion and their exercise, they can tend to slow down their digestive.

00:13:57 Nadja Dinneen

Process and become what we call in Chinese medicine. Damp. Sometimes that coat can be a white coat, sometimes it can be a yellow coat. Yellow tends to be more heat, white is more cold, so we call it like a cold, damp or a damp heat pattern.

00:14:15 Nadja Dinneen

In Ayurvedic tradition, we would scrape the tongue and clear that and that can support that digestive function. So again there are specific points that I would choose to help clear that damp and then the last important part on the tongue is you get. I don't like the term, but it's like a flabby.

00:14:36 Nadja Dinneen

Tongue so you often will see someone that has indentations on the tongue from the teeth and it indicates that there's fluid that we're storing in our body and that these teeth marks are pushing into the tongue. So that pattern is called like a spleen deficient pattern.

00:14:53 Nadja Dinneen

So the spleen and stomach in Chinese medicine is the beginning of the production of chi from the food that we eat. So when we see a pattern like that on the tongue straight away, we think the spleen and the digestive element of her isn't working optimally. Therefore, that will tend to lead towards.

00:15:13 Nadja Dinneen

Chi deficiency.

00:15:14 Nadja Dinneen

I mean, your energy is low, you're tired and using another herb that we use a lot in sessions is mugwort or moxibustion. Specific points that really benefit from using moxa to dry the damp to clear any stagnation and.

00:15:34 Nadja Dinneen

Lots of things actually. We use moxa for it's wonderful.

00:15:37 Nadja Dinneen

I love using moxa.

00:15:38 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Wow, that sounds amazing. I mean, when you were speaking, there's just so much was going through my mind around.

00:15:44 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Even when you're talking about points, so you were saying, you know, you'd find something on the tongue that indicates indicates to you that something is working on in terms of, you know, inside the body. And then you would work on the points. Could you explain what you mean by that? Do you mean through acupuncture?

00:15:58 Nadja Dinneen

Yes. Always through acupuncture, yes.

00:16:02 Nadja Dinneen

Acupuncture or moxa

00:16:04 Nadja Dinneen

On those points.

00:16:05 Dr Cristina Cavezza

And what does the moxa? How do you do that? How does that get kind of administered if you like?

00:16:09 Nadja Dinneen

Yes, yes. There's a number of different forms of moxa. You've got the traditional like cigar stick and there are grades and so.

00:16:20 Nadja Dinneen

So you might get it what's called Gold Punk moxa, which is the best grade of moxa, so you would only use very small amount and that is where I would blend in more of my traditional Japanese style of acupuncture that I was trained under as well, which yeah, there are many schools of thought in.

00:16:40 Nadja Dinneen

Chinese medicine the Germans have got theirs, so I have been blessed to have.

00:16:45 Nadja Dinneen

A wonderful teacher.

00:16:45 Nadja Dinneen

That supported me in those early days and.

00:16:48 Nadja Dinneen

The Gold Punk is rolled very finely into these very skinny spaghetti like strings, and you break off just small like rice grain sized cones, where then you would put directly onto the skin. You put a small amount of cream specific cream onto the skin.

00:17:10 Nadja Dinneen

And then that rice grain cone sticks onto that base. That sticky base on a specific point.

00:17:17 Nadja Dinneen

And then you would use also another traditional incense stick that is specific for moxa, so you would like that incense stick and then you then light the rice grain cone.

00:17:31 Nadja Dinneen

And there's a.

00:17:32 Nadja Dinneen

Technique where you need to make sure that it obviously doesn't penetrate and burn the skin.

00:17:38 Nadja Dinneen

Even though when I was in China.

00:17:41 Nadja Dinneen

You know it.

00:17:42 Nadja Dinneen

Was quite interesting experience to see how they treat traditionally. They believe that burning the skin creates this constant stimulation on an acupuncture.

00:17:52 Nadja Dinneen

Point and that that is.

00:17:53 Nadja Dinneen

Beneficial yet in our Western culture, you know, if you burn someone, that's a big no, no. So we're very mindful of that.

00:18:01 Nadja Dinneen

So rice grain moxa is one style.

00:18:04 Nadja Dinneen

We might like to roll.

00:18:06 Nadja Dinneen

Another like cone, but it's a little bit bigger. So then we would apply that. I use that a lot for tight neck and shoulders and again it's lighting it with this incense stick and waiting for the person to say Yep, that feels pretty warm and you take it off. And this has a really dispersing effect.

00:18:27 Nadja Dinneen

Where it may have felt quite tight, you can begin to feel like there's more chi and blood moving in that area and less pain. And then we have another form of Moxa, which is a smokeless form which is a charcoal form which is easier for compliance of a client. If I ask them to go and do some homework.

00:18:48 Nadja Dinneen

And they might prefer to use a stick that they can use inside.

00:18:51 Nadja Dinneen

Otherwise it is a very strong smell and probably something that you would prefer to do outside.

00:18:58 Nadja Dinneen

With the stick

00:18:59 Nadja Dinneen

Form you hold it close enough to the skin that you can feel the heat, but you do not touch the skin. You will burn yourself with that stick, so holding it close enough for about 10-15 minutes.

00:19:11 Nadja Dinneen

In whatever area you might have symptoms, so really good for sprains and.

00:19:18 Nadja Dinneen

Brakes and surgery. I use it a lot for women post caesareans, frozen shoulders. It's really good for there's many, many things that I would use moxa for so they're the main styles of Moxa. You could use moxa in a moxa box. I don't actually practise like that, but I have had plenty of sessions with other practitioners.

00:19:37 Nadja Dinneen

Do you prefer it so you can apply some moxa into a little box which

00:19:42 Nadja Dinneen

Then you apply.

00:19:43 Nadja Dinneen

It onto the body and that way you're not going to burn the skin. It's still close enough that it feels lovely and warm and nourishing and.

00:19:51 Nadja Dinneen

Particularly good to help with regulating the menstrual cycle.

00:19:54 Nadja Dinneen

And it's yeah, really useful.

00:19:56 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. Wow. Fantastic. So is this safe at all times in a woman’s journey or are there some, you know, is this, like, throughout the pregnancy she can do these techniques or obviously be treated on by a qualified practitioner. But what I mean is, is are there certain things.

00:20:10 Dr Cristina Cavezza

That you don't do at.

00:20:11 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Certain stages of a women's journey through pregnancy and motherhood?

00:20:15 Nadja Dinneen

Absolutely. There's certainly some points that we need to be mindful of.

00:20:20 Nadja Dinneen

Obviously you need to be trained to be applying moxa. There are specific points that we use to help turn a baby if a baby is in a breach, or posterior or transverse position, we have the last point on the bladder Meridian on the little toe is a brilliant point to help bubs turn.

00:20:40 Nadja Dinneen

So you would want to be avoiding that when Bubs is already in a really good position. There's no.

00:20:44 Nadja Dinneen

Need to use it.

00:20:45 Nadja Dinneen

And when else would I not prescribe Moxa?

00:20:50 Nadja Dinneen

You know, really it's not something that you would want to be doing early on in pregnancy in those first stages first trimester, certainly avoiding any heat on the lower abdomen in that first trimester, once bubs fully established and into the second trimester. And she may start to feel some lower back issues.

00:21:11 Nadja Dinneen

Abdominal stretching that's moxa is a perfect time for that, so.

00:21:16 Nadja Dinneen

Nothing else is coming to mind when you wouldn't use moxa, there are acupuncture points that we avoid during pregnancy. Those points that we use to help induce her. If she's at that 41/42 weeks then definitely we go quite strong on those points. But until that point in her pregnancy we wouldn't use those acupuncture points.

00:21:37 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. You've referred a few times to the concept of Chi, and I'm wondering if you could elaborate on that because I imagine there may be some people listening to this that don't quite grasp that concept or haven't really immersed themselves in that language. So could you speak a bit more about that?

00:21:52 Nadja Dinneen

Yeah, sure. It's a tricky 1 to get our head around because we're so in the 3D.

00:21:59 Nadja Dinneen

Physical science based western thinking, so this concept of Chi that we can't see is really hard to get.

00:22:07 Nadja Dinneen

Our head around so.

00:22:09 Nadja Dinneen

What I like to do, and it really is very personal, but I've had this philosophy that if you believe in The Big Bang theory, you know that these two atoms were drawn together. What drew those atoms together? And I believe that that is Chi, that is energy.

00:22:29 Nadja Dinneen

So it has this magnetic pull to it. It has this quality to it that can be heating and it can be cooling.

00:22:39 Nadja Dinneen

And it is when we wake up in the morning after we've had a really nice, deep sleep, we feel energised. So this could be a feeling of good Chi. I've had a good sleep. I've got lots of energy. I feel good. You may also think about Chi

00:22:59 Nadja Dinneen

When you walk into a room.

00:23:01 Nadja Dinneen

And you can kind of feel the vibes in the room like people have been having a pretty intense conversation.

00:23:08 Nadja Dinneen

You can feel that.

00:23:10 Nadja Dinneen

Or the opposite like ohh, it feels good in here. Like you know, the Feng Shui in the room feels good the way that the lighting is and the decorations makes me feel good. So this is Chi and this is what we're using when we're offering acupuncture to somebody's body, we're activating.

00:23:30 Nadja Dinneen

And waking up and talking to this vital force within our body. I hope that explains it a little bit more.

00:23:40 Nadja Dinneen

But it's certainly worth delving in if it's an interest for you, fascinating area to explore.

00:23:49 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Hi there Fierce, Kind Mama, are you expecting multiples and wondering how you're going to cope when the babies arrive? Or do you already have multiples at home and wonder will this ever get easier?

00:24:00 Dr Cristina Cavezza

First of all, let me say loud and clear, I get it. Feeling overwhelmed in motherhood is really common and us mothers of multiples are particularly prone to feeling sometimes, like it's all too much.

00:24:13 Dr Cristina Cavezza

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00:24:34 Dr Cristina Cavezza

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00:24:38 Dr Cristina Cavezza

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00:24:40 Dr Cristina Cavezza

The principles apply to all parents of multiples, and because I know you're short on time, I've broken down the tips into easy to read chunks that you can begin implementing straight away. You can get your free copy now by signing up at my website. www.fiercekindmama.com. 

00:25:01 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, when you were speaking, I was thinking about the concept of. I guess this is maybe more, you know, Western

00:25:03 Dr Cristina Cavezza

thinking, you know, Western developed concept around research and that kind of thing, but I was thinking about emotional contagion, like this idea that, you know, if you surround yourself with happy people or you surround yourself by happy people, that you're naturally going to feel in a more positive mood, you know, just the idea of that.

00:25:23 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Contagion and laughter being contagious and that whole thing, it kind of reminded me of that is it kind of.

00:25:23 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Like that?

00:25:27 Nadja Dinneen

Yeah, yeah, absolutely it is. It is. And if you're around. Yeah. Good vibe. People. You can't help.

00:25:34 Nadja Dinneen

But not be.

00:25:35 Nadja Dinneen

Positive with them, it is contagious, and that's how acupuncture works. It really boosts the constitution of the person. It boosts their vitality, their ability to function well in the world. And yeah, I feel so passionate about it because sadly, Western medicine.

00:25:56 Nadja Dinneen

Is really missing out on a really important part to what brings health and well being, you know, Western medicine sadly just focuses on ill health. It's not a wellness industry and yet.

00:26:08 Nadja Dinneen

I think the biggest part of Chinese medicine is it's a preventative medicine. You know, we don't wait till you've already got a problem. It seems so backward to me. You know, why don't we live our lives holistically and individually, then just plodding along and waiting till something's wrong, you know?

00:26:26 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. And so do you.

00:26:28 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Many of the women that come to you are they coming to you in a kind of a preventative?

00:26:33 Dr Cristina Cavezza

 Like it's a preventative measure. Are they coming to you with certain problems and issues? You know you're working towards helping them rebuild or rebalance if you like.

00:26:42 Nadja Dinneen

So I think a lot of the time because of our Western culture, women are coming with something most of the time because I'm so well known in this area, it is.

00:26:53 Nadja Dinneen

Related to pregnancy, but I do treat anyone and.

00:26:57 Nadja Dinneen

So once a woman comes for a few sessions and I start to speak in this language, she may start to feel like I want to come when I'm well.

00:27:08

And not wait.

00:27:10 Nadja Dinneen

Till I'm fully out of balance, she might.

00:27:13 Nadja Dinneen

Start to become to perceive.

00:27:16 Nadja Dinneen

I’m starting to feel a little bit out of balance and I'd like to just get a tune up and maybe come once every six weeks as a way to maintain good.

00:27:25 Nadja Dinneen

Health and that, traditionally, is how it was back in the day. You wouldn’t wait.

00:27:32 Nadja Dinneen

Until you were sick.

00:27:33 Nadja Dinneen

Yeah, the doctor would keep you well. And if you got sick, you wouldn't pay the professor or the master in that area that was treating you back in those days. It was his job to keep you well. So a very different way of thinking, isn't it?

00:27:50 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yes, it is, and I see it as like exactly as you said. You know, it's proactive, preventative rather than reactive which.

00:27:57 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Is, you know, I see this a lot in my work too, because I work in the mental health field as a psychologist. As you already know, and also now moving into the coaching space and what I find is a lot of people do come when there already problems. But it's interesting because, you know, when I've done like my coaching programme, in particularly with someone who then, you know, some of the feedback that they give is.

00:28:18 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Like I realised now that this is the stuff I should have been doing before, like I could have benefited from this when I was pregnant, not after the babies were born. And now I'm in the throes of parenting and I'm struggling. They have that.

00:28:32 Dr Cristina Cavezza

It's kind of like that 20/20 vision, right? And hindsight is always better, you know, and they can look back and they can say, well, actually, I could have benefited from this earlier. 

00:28:53 Nadja Dinneen

and that's how I feel about motherhood studies. That's how I feel my work now moving forward is how can we start to inform women before we've gone down the depths of the depths and we're so lost and so deficient and so depleted. Like, how can we get into women's ears in the preconception phase to build and nourish herself and inform her of what a massive rite of passage

00:29:14 Nadja Dinneen

Motherhood is.

00:29:15 Nadja Dinneen

So that she.

00:29:16 Nadja Dinneen

Is what's that saying? Pre warned. Forewarned. You know before.

00:29:21 Nadja Dinneen

Yeah, things are so, so hard. That is what I would like to do, but I know already from my experience of working with postpartum mums.

00:29:30 Nadja Dinneen

It's not until she's at least had her first child that she realises how much care she needs postpartum, and we live in this society that has taught us that you can cope. You'll be fine, you'll be able to bounce back, you know, you just look at all the other women that have done it and there's this expectation that you will.

00:29:51 Nadja Dinneen

And yet, honestly, that's not the truth.

00:29:56 Nadja Dinneen

You know we.

00:29:56 Nadja Dinneen

All go through a massive.

00:29:59 Nadja Dinneen

Change that needs to be acknowledged and we need.

00:30:02 Nadja Dinneen

To prepare for that.

00:30:03 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with you there.

00:30:08 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Maybe we could shift gears a little bit because we're starting to talk about that matrescence and that kind of journey and the rite of passage.

00:30:16 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Maybe we, you know, focus now on your journey and what that has meant for you and what that's looked like. And then from that, what's kind of inspired you to do the work that you do?

00:30:26 Nadja Dinneen

Sure. 

00:30:28 Nadja Dinneen

So my journey as a mother was in 2013. I birthed my twin girls. I had been with my husband for four years and we had decided it was time to do some pre conception healthcare. And so we did for.

00:30:49 Nadja Dinneen

About 3 months went on, nothing too strict, but just stripped back our diet to be nice and clean. No alcohol and just focused on getting ourselves really nutritiously dense, I guess.

00:31:03 Nadja Dinneen

And quite quickly, I was very blessed to full pregnant. I never had twins on my radar, so when I found out that I was pregnant with twins, it was an enormous shock. I took it very hard, I must say. I was just in doubt that I was able to manage.

00:31:24 Nadja Dinneen

What it was going to be like to care for two babies at one time, let alone how I was going to manage through the pregnancy and birth process.

00:31:32 Nadja Dinneen

So I feel because I worked with a lot of women and I have had the experience and the honour. I am honoured to have touched enough women to see that my pregnancy was fairly good.

00:31:47 Nadja Dinneen

I did have.

00:31:47 Nadja Dinneen

Terrible amount of nausea and vomiting, but not to the point where I needed to be hospitalised.

00:31:53 Nadja Dinneen

Once I got to that pointy end of my pregnancy, I did develop preeclampsia, and I was navigating with my obstetrician how best to deliver my girls, naturally.

00:32:07 Nadja Dinneen

But at that point, when preeclampsia was diagnosed, it was like, look, you've just gotta come in at this point. We don't wanna risk anything and I didn't wanna risk anything, so I chose to be induced, I think in probably the most gentlest way. I was already a couple of centimetres dilated and it was easy enough just to break my waters.

00:32:29 Nadja Dinneen

So I was able to go into labour quite quickly after that and was very in control rather than induced with a lot of the oxytocin or syntocinon on board which can make things quite intense so.

00:32:46 Nadja Dinneen

Got to a pointy end of my birthing journey when my uterus got tired and the contraction slowed down. So that was at about 14 hours and the call was we could choose a number of options, and at that point, I decided. Yeah, well, let's just get these babies out. Go for a Caesar.

00:33:04 Nadja Dinneen

And get our babies out.

00:33:05 Nadja Dinneen

But and they were big, healthy girls of 6 1/2 pound and seven pounds. Really good size babies who came straight onto my skin and was blessed to have an obstetrician that was fairly mother centred woman centred and allowed me to have plenty of that delayed cord clamping time and.

00:33:26 Nadja Dinneen

Blessed to have them come into my room straight away with me so.

00:33:31 Nadja Dinneen

I'm incredibly grateful for that experience, and yes, it could have been the vaginal birth that I was dreaming of, but it could have also been very different down the other end. So I have certainly processed that and come to a place now that they're 10 peace in my heart with where they're at, they're very healthy.

00:33:50 Nadja Dinneen

Vivacious, strong energy girls, so.

00:33:53 Nadja Dinneen

They teach me every day about so much, just incredibly grateful. But yeah, once we were at home and adjusting to early days breastfeeding, I didn't recover well from the caesarean. It took quite a lot of time to build my breast milk supply. I was able to get donated breast milk, which I was incredibly grateful for from.

00:34:16 Nadja Dinneen

Couple of mums would you believe one mum that was a triplet mum who had triplets and had abundance of milk and yeah to donate her milk.

00:34:28 Nadja Dinneen

And a dear midwife friend of mine, who also had had a baby, maybe about six months before me, and had abundance. So it took a little while to establish enough milk to then get to the point of being able to produce enough to offer my girls.

00:34:44 Nadja Dinneen

And then once that process and once they were big enough.

00:34:49 Nadja Dinneen

And we got over.

00:34:49 Nadja Dinneen

That hurdle, you know. Then it was coming to terms with.

00:34:53 Nadja Dinneen

How am I going

00:34:54 Nadja Dinneen

To go out in the world with these two babies that run in separate directions.

00:35:01 Nadja Dinneen

And and where's the village? You know? Where's the village? Where's the aunties? Where's uncles? Where is the community. You know, my mum lives in Sydney and I'm on the Sunshine Coast, near Noosa and.

00:35:14 Nadja Dinneen

Just didn't have that, so I really struggled with that and I guess that's why I have really looked into matrescence and motherhood studies because I felt the gap of care in that early motherhood journey. But I'm incredibly blessed to have a wonderful husband who's been by my side as my equal.

00:35:35 Nadja Dinneen

The whole time he would get up.

00:35:38 Nadja Dinneen

Every feed in those early days and really I couldn't ask for more from a partner. So yeah, that's a bit about my own motherhood journey.

00:35:49 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, there was so much there that I felt, you know, resonated, I think with probably a lot of listeners experience. But the big one that came out for me was.

00:35:57 Dr Cristina Cavezza

The need for community and the searching for that and that that kind of actually led you to motherhood studies and immersing yourself in that discipline. And I think you and I are alike in  a lot of ways because.

00:36:11 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I think that's exactly been my experience too.

00:36:13 Dr Cristina Cavezza

You know in my.

00:36:14 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I think that's probably the thing that hit hit the most was the isolation the sheer just and the recognition that this doesn't.

00:36:22 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Feel right like.

00:36:23 Dr Cristina Cavezza

There needs to be more people here, you know. It shouldn't be this way. But like, it almost feels like it's just it goes against something like it.

00:36:31 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Goes against what's natural to be just doing everything on your own day-to-day and and not having that. I mean, I know you had your partner and I have a partner too, but I think that.

00:36:39 Dr Cristina Cavezza

There's there's so much there around community, right?

00:36:42 Dr Cristina Cavezza

And the search for that led you to could you speak.

00:36:45 Dr Cristina Cavezza

A bit about that?

00:36:45 Dr Cristina Cavezza

How the search for community led you, you know, to motherhood studies and immersing in that.

00:36:50 Nadja Dinneen

I just feel like by offering some education and knowledge, using Chinese medicine as a wonderful tool to help women become clearer about.

00:37:02 Nadja Dinneen

Their health and wellbeing

00:37:03 Nadja Dinneen

within themselves and their connection to nature.

00:37:07 Nadja Dinneen

Will then also help to feel connected to other women and that you know, when we sit together, we don't feel so alone, you know, and by sharing my own journey and knowing that, yes, I feel that too.

00:37:27 Nadja Dinneen

Helps another woman not feel so isolated. I have done women circles over the last couple of years and feel like that is a place that women feel they can come and be seen and be heard and not be judged and a place for mums, you know, a bit like a community centre.

00:37:47 Nadja Dinneen

That we would.

00:37:47 Nadja Dinneen

Go to like teenage years and remember there was a community centre. We would go and.

00:37:51 Nadja Dinneen

Hang out and.

00:37:52 Nadja Dinneen

Play pool and you know where's those community centres for, mums, you know, that's what I would love to start to offer women and it may just be an online offering at this point.

00:38:04 Nadja Dinneen

Because I don't want to necessarily limit it to a local area, it will be wonderful to have international community to come together and unpack this together and change the programming of what we have been led to believe motherhood should look like and recognise that we really need each other to feel more connected.

00:38:24 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, I absolutely love that mission. I think that that, you know, when you speak that that just sounds wonderful because it what came to my mind was.

00:38:33 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I think there's a lot of emphasis we place on, at least here in the Australian context, around play groups, right, at least in my experience, it feels like the emphasis is on that. That's for the kids, for the kids, to have an outlet to socialise and to play rather than there being an emphasis on what does the mother need or the parent.

00:38:53 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Right, the adults. I wonder if you could speak a bit about that in your experience in terms of what you feel we as mothers

00:39:00 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Especially multiple birth parents, what do you feel might be lacking? What do you feel we need that we might not be getting?

00:39:08 Nadja Dinneen

Yeah, I think our culture is very much centred around even the postpartum first visit is 6 weeks. So what happens to the woman in the first six weeks when she's alone?

00:39:21 Nadja Dinneen

At home, no one's caring about that mother, and it's about how the babies are.

00:39:27 Nadja Dinneen

And I remember even at the hospital, the midwife said to me, we're not a babysitting club. It's time for you to go. And I was so shocked and so heartbroken. There's such a little support and acknowledgement around motherhood. And for the mother.

00:39:47 Nadja Dinneen

When in fact, she needs to be the centre if she is not healthy, mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, economically.

00:39:56 Nadja Dinneen

If she doesn't have the personal view within herself of how important she is, and this is going to infiltrate into her children, her children aren't going to value themselves because she's not valuing herself. So how can we help mothers start to see my husband puts it as.

00:40:16 Nadja Dinneen

Changing the profile of the mother you need to change the profile of mother. You know she is a woman that offers so much to her family, to her community, to her.

00:40:29 Nadja Dinneen

workplace, rather than she's just a mum.

00:40:32 Nadja Dinneen

So by coming together, sitting together, it doesn't need to be anything too deep and meaningful or spiritual. It's just gathering like we would have once upon a time in red tents where we would have been able to sit together. And I think just being together.

00:40:51 Nadja Dinneen

I feel like the pandemic has been enormous

00:40:52 Nadja Dinneen

change maker and really impacted how we value our time together and who we value being with and what we need, what's essential in our lives. So I see the positives of the pandemic for mothers, even though it's been incredibly difficult for mothers if they talk about the.

00:41:13 Nadja Dinneen

2nd shift and the third shift and how many shifts that mother actually does doesn't actually stop.

00:41:19 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yes, I think the pandemic certainly brought on many challenges, but also made us, I guess, more aware of what matters to us most and.

00:41:28 Dr Cristina Cavezza

What's going to help us in our lives as mothers.

00:41:31 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I wonder if we could, maybe you know, I know we could speak for a lot longer, but I'm aware of your time and I want to be conscious of your time. I wonder if we could maybe end with what advice you’d give to multiple birth parents now who may be expecting multiples and a bit overwhelmed by that news.

00:41:51 Dr Cristina Cavezza

What advice would you

00:41:52 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Give to people on that part of their journey?

00:41:53 Nadja Dinneen

Oh, I get emotional thinking about that to be at a point in my life to share some pearls of wisdom that I've gained along the way.

00:42:06 Nadja Dinneen

I think the first and foremost is to drop the expectation to take the pressure off of what you think.

00:42:12 Nadja Dinneen

It should look like.

00:42:14 Nadja Dinneen

That you are an individual woman who will be able to show up in her own individual way, and that that is good enough. And then I would really encourage mums and couples to think about that postpartum first 40 days in Chinese medicine. We talk about that. That is a very sacred.

00:42:35 Nadja Dinneen

Window of time.

00:42:36 Nadja Dinneen

That we can invest in health and well being that pays off deep down her life to post menopausal years. So really taking the time to I use I say it's like a fourth trimester. So three months of a very quiet time. You're not busy out and about.

00:42:56 Nadja Dinneen

It's really replenishing. You've just grown two babies and a huge placenta or two, so very slow, very big on nutrition. Supplementing at that point.

00:43:07 Nadja Dinneen

Looking at what your body is requiring from a nutritional perspective and to take lots of photos and videos cause it goes so so quick and to look back on those photos and videos. You know nowadays with my own daughters is such a fond and you know, I have such fond memories.

00:43:28 Nadja Dinneen

Which is so delightful. So.

00:43:30 Nadja Dinneen

I really encourage you to do that.

00:43:32 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. Ohh, I love that last piece of advice and I love everything that you've said. I think it is such an important point around.

00:43:39 Dr Cristina Cavezza

That window after birth that period where we do sometimes just jump in and we want to rush into getting back into our normal quote on quote, you know.

00:43:48 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Normal busy lives.

00:43:49 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Rather than taking that time to really savour pause let our bodies heal. So such important advice. Thank you so much for your story today and your wisdom and sharing.

00:43:59 Dr Cristina Cavezza

All with us. Thank you so much. It's been wonderful having you and I'll put in the podcast show notes, the links to your contact details in case people want to reach out to you for your services. It's been wonderful having you. Thank you.

00:44:13 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you like what you've heard, then please follow and leave a review so that other expectant and current parents of multiples like yourself can find this podcast and the valuable information it contains. I'd be so very grateful if you left a review and shared this with anyone you think could benefit from listening.

00:44:32 Dr Cristina Cavezza

If you have.

00:44:32 Dr Cristina Cavezza

A particular topic.

00:44:33 Dr Cristina Cavezza

You'd like me to cover on this podcast, feel free to reach out to me via my website www.fiercekindmama.com 

00:44:40 Dr Cristina Cavezza

New episodes are released every second Wednesday. So we’ll see you back here real soon. Any advice and information on this podcast is general only, and has been prepared without taking into account your particular circumstances and needs. For tailored, individualised advice, please.

00:45:00 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Consult with a qualified professional.