Advocating for Multiple-Birth Families: A Conversation with Shauna Leven, CEO of Twins Trust

Join me in conversation with Shauna Leven, CEO of Twins Trust - a charity based in the UK that provides evidence-based information and support to multiple-birth families. 

In this interview, Shauna shares with us:

• the origin story of Twins Trust (formerly known as TAMBA) 
• the various services Twins Trust offers, from advocacy work, to campaigning, to bereavement support
• the challenges multiple-birth families face
• the need for more awareness and research into these challenges....and so much more!

Did I mention that Shauna is also a human rights lawyer, a successful campaigner and strategist, and a mother to twins? 

I had so much fun learning about the important work that Twins Trust is doing to support multiple-birth families.

Be sure to head over to the website and check out the amazing work they are doing to support multiple-birth families:

https://twinstrust.org/

Thanks for listening! If you are a soon-to-be or current parent of multiples, be sure to head over to my website http://www.fiercekindmama.com to get my FREE resources designed specifically for you!

Be sure to follow me on Instagram and Facebook too.

Credits:
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/aylex/with-you
License code: YLMJTQCPKRANEOVB

Transcript

00:00:06 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Welcome to the Fierce Kind Mama of Multiples podcast. This podcast is for anyone raising multiples, twins, triplets or more. I speak to inspiring parents of multiples who have healed from unexpected pregnancies and birthing experiences and who candidly share the highs and lows raising multiples.

00:00:27 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I also speak to the professionals that work with multiple birth families. Together we cover the practicalities of raising more than one baby at a time, as well as enhancing the emotional well-being of caregivers and children alike.

00:00:41 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Come join us as we laugh, cry and share our personal and professional wisdom on all things multiples. I'm your host doctor, Cristina Cavezza, and I am a fierce kind Mama of multiples.

00:00:59 Dr Cristina Cavezza

On today's episode, I'm joined by Shauna Leven. Shauna is the CEO of Twins Trust.

00:01:07 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Twins Trust is a charity based in the UK that offers many services for multiple birth families. Shauna has worked in senior management roles in the charity sector for more than 10 years. She's also a human rights lawyer, a successful campaigner and strategist. But her most important role, as she says, is mom to boy/girl twins. 

00:01:27 Dr Cristina Cavezza

On today's episode, Shauna shares with us how Twins Trust was formed and the many ways that this charity supports multiple birth families. If you're based in the UK and you haven't checked out the amazing work that twins trust is doing, then be sure to head over to their website. You can find the link in the podcast show notes.

00:01:46 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I had such a wonderful time connecting with Shauna and hearing more about Twins Trust. I have so much admiration for professionals like Shauna who juggle the demands of raising their own multiples while working to better the lives of other multiple birth families. I hope you enjoy this episode.

00:02:06 Dr Cristina Cavezza

So welcome Shauna. Lovely to have you here.

00:02:09 Shauna Leven

Thanks. It's so nice to be here.

00:02:13 Dr Cristina Cavezza

We were just speaking before I pressed record about the time difference, so I'm in night time and it is like pitch black outside and I can see where you are. There's lovely sort of sun light coming through the window. So thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to be here today.

00:02:32 Shauna Leven

Absolutely. Our Twins Trust is based in London, so it's just coming up on lunchtime here.

00:02:38 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yes, lovely. Why don't we start with you telling us a bit about yourself and the work that you do?

00:02:44 Shauna Leven

Sure. So my name is Shauna Leven. I'm the chief executive of Twins Trust. We are the UK charity that supports twins, triplets and more and their families. We were started about 40 years ago and we have been supporting thousands of families since then. I think we have over 100,000 families.

00:03:03 Shauna Leven

In our database, and as you'll know, twins and triplets, the prevalence of which have increased a lot over the past couple of decades. So that number has obviously grown a lot more recently and I should say even though we are based in the UK, we do actually have families that we support all over the world and in particular in Australia I know

00:03:23 Shauna Leven

You guys have AMBA, which does an amazing job as well of representing multiple families in Australia. But we do have a community there as well. So it's really nice to be here today.

00:03:34 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Wow, that's fantastic. Thank you for sharing all of that. I have quite a few questions off the back of that. When you were speaking first, I didn't actually realize that Twins Trust services, if you like, families around the world.

00:03:49 Shauna Leven

Yeah. So.

00:03:51 Shauna Leven

I think you know this isn't substantiated by anything, but from what I understand, we're we're one of the largest organizations in at least the English speaking world that does the kind of work that we do. We have about 30 staff members on payroll. And so I know there are twin and multiple associations in the US and Canada and Australia and New Zealand.

00:04:10 Shauna Leven

And I think they're they're mostly smaller and and so we are very happy to provide resources and support to families that that just need a little bit extra from anywhere. And actually we have interestingly communities.

00:04:26 Shauna Leven

That pop up.

00:04:27 Shauna Leven

In different places, I I think we've got a few in Eastern Europe.

00:04:31 Shauna Leven

We get occasional inquiries from Asia, definitely support families in a lot of different places, particularly sadly on the bereavement side of things. We have bereaved families from all over the world that use our service. So yeah, it's it's a, it's a big and interesting and diverse community.

00:04:50 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, right. And when you said 30 staff members on the payroll, I thought, wow, that's fantastic, because I know in the context that I'm in, I'm we're speaking actually about this before I hit record. I'm originally from Canada, but based in Australia. And I know that I've done some volunteer work for my local chapters of the Australian Multiple Birth Association.

00:05:11 Dr Cristina Cavezza

But it's largely as far as I understand, volunteer run and lead. So for you to have actual that you know that many number of people on staff that's.

00:05:23 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Quite remarkable and how did

00:05:25 Dr Cristina Cavezza

The charity begin?

00:05:27 Shauna Leven

Umm, so it was founded. As I said, it's actually probably almost 45 years ago now by a woman called Judy Linney who was a nurse in South Africa, and she moved to the UK and found out shortly after that she was expecting twins and she was really quite, I think, saddened and shocked to.

00:05:48 Shauna Leven

To find out how little information there was for people expecting twins. And I think in particular, after she brought her.

00:05:54 Shauna Leven

twins home how little information there was for for new parents of twins and how ill equipped the world was to support families with twins. I think there's an anecdote about her not being able to go to the shops on her own because double buggies weren't allowed in her local supermarket and and so she set up with.

00:06:14 Shauna Leven

a doctor and with some other parents, an association that was then called Tamba, the Twins and Multiple Birth Association to help to really coordinate. There was already a network of twin clubs in existence and to help coordinate.

00:06:30 Shauna Leven

the twin clubs to be a national voice for families of twins and multiples, and also to support those clubs and supporting their local families. And she's still our president today. I'll I'll see her tomorrow actually. So she's so involved in the work and it's really wonderful to to still have that connection.

00:06:48 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, that's that's amazing. So how has Twins Trust - formerly Tamba, as you were saying, how has it evolved over the years?

00:06:59 Shauna Leven

So I mean, I haven't been around for the revolution, but I think it started again as this kind of coordinating voice for the local network of clubs. And I would imagine as the prevalence of twins and multiples grew in the population, the need grew. And I believe you know the service started to professionalize maybe 10 years after its.

00:07:19 Shauna Leven

Founding and developing information and leaflets, things like that. For families, of course. This was pre, you know, digital service delivery and then extended it to work.

00:07:29 Shauna Leven

Into a volunteer run helpline and then after that we started providing more resources for healthcare professionals, started running courses and now we have a kind of fully two kind of fully fledged prongs 1 focused on families, one focused on healthcare professionals. And then we also do.

00:07:49 Shauna Leven

Policy work and advocacy on the national level.

00:07:53 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, right. OK. And so I know before we hit record as well, we were talking about the fact that you are not from London originally.

00:08:02 Dr Cristina Cavezza

So tell us a.

00:08:03 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Bit about how you found yourself in the role of CEO of Twins trust.

00:08:10 Shauna Leven

So I am from the United States. I'm from New York. I originally trained and practiced as a lawyer and and after that I went into kind of human rights and International Development, which I did for a while here in the UK, mostly. And and then I had my twins in 2018 and took some time.

00:08:30 Shauna Leven

Out after that. 

00:08:31 Shauna Leven

and and really didn't know what I wanted to do after that I I wasn't sure if I wanted to go back into the charity nonprofit sector or not. And so when I kind of thought about, I thought that it was time to go back. I and I really wanted to do something that I was very personally passionate about. And, you know, when this role came up, it felt like a really natural.

00:08:52 Shauna Leven

Fit because I had young twins at that point myself. And, you know, just really understood first hand some of the challenges that that our families can face. So it was a really nice and organic fit.

00:09:06 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. You spoke a bit about, you know, some of the challenges that multiple birth families face. And I've, I imagine that, you know, you've heard from many multiple birth families as the CEO of Twins Trust, and you hear a lot of stories and what are some of the challenges that multiple birth families face in the UK? What do they experience?

00:09:28 Shauna Leven

I'm sure it's not too dissimilar to the challenges they face everywhere. I think it fundamentally stems just from a lack of appreciation of how challenging it can be to experience a multiple pregnancy and then raise, you know, multiples. Beyond that, you know, from the moment you find out you're expecting multiples, you're told this is a high risk pregnancy.

00:09:49 Shauna Leven

You're likely to deliver early. You're very possibly going to have complications. You certainly have to attend more hospital appointments, which can be very disruptive to your work or to your other.

00:10:00 Shauna Leven

Children to your life. So it starts there, and if you're lucky enough to have an uncomplicated pregnancy and to deliver on time, which is a is a small proportion of our families, and you're still, you know, dealing with the challenges of coming home from hospital, often recovering from surgery and and then caring for more than one.

00:10:21 Shauna Leven

baby at a time with, you know, in in a system, a social care, a healthcare system that doesn't fully appreciate how challenging that can be and and of course, if you're not fortunate enough to have a simple and uncomplicated pregnancy, you can spend time on bed rest. You can spend time in hospital.

00:10:40 Shauna Leven

And a vast majority of our families spend time either in special care, as which we call kind of pre NICU services here in the UK, or in NICU, and actually some of our families have to deal with being in more than one NICU. They'll have one baby in one hospital and another baby somewhere else in the country. And and babies and.

00:11:00 Shauna Leven

Makes for different length of time. And of course, if you're bringing home babies with special needs while you're also recovering yourself, I, you know, I mean, I can go on and on. I.

00:11:08 Shauna Leven

Think and but.

00:11:10 Shauna Leven

Your home, you know, dealing with again, kind of feeding challenges, the cost of living can be a real stress point for our families getting out of the house is a real milestone. You know, it seems kind of straightforward if you've only brought one baby at a time home, but it's obviously much more complicated.

00:11:30 Shauna Leven

If you're trying to get out and about with two babies or more. 

00:11:34 Shauna Leven

And and then it kind of extends into finding childcare either finding places or affording the cost heading back to work. And, you know, sorting out school placements and making sure you get placements in the same school, if that's what you want or in the

00:11:53 Shauna Leven

Same class, different classes and all the way through individualization and adulthood, and the challenges go on. So I think, you know, the biggest, the biggest kind of umbrella over all of that is just this lack of understanding and appreciation of all of those challenges, which means that the system is kind of just not set up for our families.

00:12:12 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. And when you were speaking, I was.

00:12:16 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Thinking how much that resonates with the experience.

00:12:20 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Of many multiple birth families that I know, myself included here in Australia. But even when I, you know, from what I've heard of speaking to people from different countries, what?

00:12:32 Dr Cristina Cavezza

What do you think are some of the ways that there can be more equity for multiple birth families within

00:12:40 Dr Cristina Cavezza

The structure I mean.

00:12:42 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Is it within the structure we have or do you think there needs to be systemic changes? I mean from your experience in the UK where you're based?

00:12:51 Shauna Leven

I think first of all, we need more research into both the complications around multiple pregnancies, but also many of the interventions that are kind of thought of as normal interventions in pregnancy have never actually been researched in multiple pregnancies. So, you know, one kind of semi.

00:13:11 Shauna Leven

Hot topic here in the UK right now is the practice of giving a steroid injection right before delivery if delivery is going to be before a certain date and the babies are under a certain weight. I'm not a doctor, so don't don't quote me on the

00:13:25 Shauna Leven

Specifics, but that is often presented as a standard practice, yet actually it hasn't been researched to the extent that we understand the consequences of giving that steroid injection. I we we do know that there can be some benefits in Singleton pregnancies of certain category. But in multiple pregnancies there's just not enough research.

00:13:46 Shauna Leven

To really understand whether that's going to be helpful, and if there are any potential adverse outcomes, so research is definitely the starting point, but it really goes on from there I think.

00:13:57 Shauna Leven

Better training and more appreciation in healthcare professionals. So we have lots of amazing healthcare professionals here that really, really do understand multiple births and the challenges associated with multiple births. But unfortunately not every hospital or maternity unit has folks like that working in them and we've heard.

00:14:18 Shauna Leven

Stories from our families and you know where it's really clear that there is a very, very small understanding of the kinds of things multiples face and unfortunately still birth and neonatal death rates reflect this here in the UK, they're significantly higher than they are for singletons, which is just an absolute tragedy.

00:14:39 Shauna Leven

And and associated to that better training and care. Sorry. Better training for bereavement care staff who may not understand the nuances of potentially grieving for one or more babies while having one or more living babies at the same time is a real challenge for families that are, sadly bereaved. 

00:15:02 Shauna Leven

And then you know again, kind of the maternity leave system here while you know it it, it is generous compared to some other countries, doesn't make any exceptions for having more than one baby at the same time. So that may mean that compared to somebody that's had two babies at different times.

00:15:23 Shauna Leven

Somebody's getting, you know, significantly less leave and less paid leave than than a peer with one baby, although we have had some recent advances on neonatal leave and pay here, which is an issue.

00:15:37 Shauna Leven

That we campaigned for so parents now when when this piece of legislation comes into effect, will be able to take paid leave if they have babies in neonatal care. So that's fantastic. And and that piece of legislation actually does allow leave for each baby.

00:15:58 Shauna Leven

In neonatal care. So that's really a breakthrough in terms of the kind of care offerings that are available here.

00:16:08 Shauna Leven

And you know, it kind of goes on from there. We've had families tell us that the health visiting service here, which again by and large I think does a great job, but there are there just really can be a lack of understanding of what it means to bring home more than one baby at a time helping parents.

00:16:29 Shauna Leven

Feeding support is a big issue that we.

00:16:32 Shauna Leven

Hear about a.

00:16:32 Shauna Leven

Lot and and simple challenges. You know getting out of the house especially for our triplet families. How do you do?

00:16:40 Shauna Leven

That, especially if you're living in a flat with, you know, a lift or.

00:16:47 Shauna Leven

Stairs or you know, you've got to get 3 babies into a car, things like that. So really, really practical things better. A better understanding of those sorts of things through the social care system I think would help us to have a more comparable quality of life, which of course is.

00:17:07 Shauna Leven

You know what equity is all about? And then all the.

00:17:10 Shauna Leven

Way up through kind of school choice.

00:17:13 Shauna Leven

And again kind of understanding the challenges that adolescent and adult multiples may face through the education system, it really does boil down to I think understanding.

00:17:27 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. And I'm hearing that a lot from what you're saying that there needs, there does need to be greater awareness of the issues faced by multiple birth families. I wonder, how does Twins Trust. because you mentioned you, you are kind of two pronged, you work with families themselves. So the the individual parents and the kids but also with health professionals. Can you

00:17:47 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Tell us a bit about that

00:17:48 Dr Cristina Cavezza

That aspect of it how how do you work with health professionals? What kind of services

00:17:52 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Do you provide there?

00:17:55 Shauna Leven

Absolutely. So we have resources for health professionals and that includes courses and webinars and study days often for CPD credit, which is continuing professional development credit, which is really important. And these cover everything from, you know, complications in a multiple pregnancy to perinatal.

00:18:15 Shauna Leven

Care to bereavement care.

00:18:17 Shauna Leven

All sorts of things like that, so that's fantastic. And we're getting a lot of interest in that at the moment. So that's great to see that so many folks out there are interested in learning more about multiple births and and then we also have a project called Maternity Engagement Project.

00:18:37 Shauna Leven

This is something we launched 7 years ago with Department of Health funding at the time, although now it's it's an independent project.

00:18:44 Shauna Leven

That and this is a program by which we invite units to be audited by us, and they we we audit them in against what are called the NICE guidelines, which are the government guidelines for standard of care here in the UK. So we will go into a unit.

00:19:06 Shauna Leven

And they will provide us, you know, with a series of records and documents.

00:19:09 Shauna Leven

And we will.

00:19:09 Shauna Leven

Say at the end of the audit. This is, you know how well you're doing against the NICE guidance and here is an improvement plan if you need it. And we'll be back to see you again in a period of time.

00:19:19 Shauna Leven

And it's actually coming out of the original kind of funded period. We wrote a report called NICE Works that shows significant reductions in still birth in neonatal death rates. And it's, you know, again it's really well received by most units. I would say there's a lot of interest in participating in it.

00:19:40 Shauna Leven

You know, hospitals actually have to pay for the the program themselves.

00:19:44 Shauna Leven

Now, and I think this is largely driven by you know, the midwives and the clinicians that just really want to do the best job they can when it comes to multiple births. So it's a great project, but yeah, other than that we have we have courses and webinars, lots of resources. We have a newsletter that goes out to healthcare professionals that tells them about different things. Our families are talking about, so.

00:20:04 Shauna Leven

And we also we facilitate kind of online peer-to-peer support communities. So lots of work with the healthcare community.

00:20:12 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Hi there Fierce Kind Mama. Sorry to interrupt the discussion, but I have something to share with you that I know you're going to love. We're often told that parenting can be hard and whether you're a soon to be or current parent of multiples, there is going to come a time when you will probably feel stressed, overwhelmed

00:20:31 Dr Cristina Cavezza

or even worried about the future.

00:20:34 Dr Cristina Cavezza

That's why I've developed a free guide for parents, just like you with my 5 top tips for handling stress and overwhelm.  You can download it now from my website fiercekindmama.com.

00:20:49 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, all of that sounds amazing. You know, a lot of great initiatives there. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the services you provide for multiple birth families, because I know you have a number of different, I guess, specialist services, if you like things for dads, things specifically for breastfeeding. Could you talk a little bit about some of those?

00:21:11 Shauna Leven

Absolutely. So yeah, Twins Trust, we think about our Family Services in terms of information facilitating community and then providing bespoke support where those aren't enough. And so our information starts with our website where everything we offer is evidence based and really pragmatic so.

00:21:29 Shauna Leven

That can be.

00:21:31 Shauna Leven

You know, simple, you know, informational articles to stories from other families to toolkit.

00:21:37 Shauna Leven

And we offer courses both in person and digital, you know, recorded courses and online courses as well. And from early pregnancy, all the way through the full antenatal course to I'm not supposed to call it hypno birthing, but hypno birthing for multiples and.

00:21:57 Shauna Leven

And and then into the behavioral aspects of raising especially small children and you know.

00:22:05 Shauna Leven

Toilet training and other, you know, sleep issues, things like that. So a whole range of courses, we have a volunteer run helpline called Twin Line. And that is again manned by our volunteers. But they've all been trained and are experts in certain areas so.

00:22:25 Shauna Leven

And and and you can e-mail in your queries or call uh during our opening hours.

00:22:30 Shauna Leven

And we facilitate online communities again, these are based around predominantly around need. So things like single parents special needs you know there's there's the expectant group as well, the under ones group and these are places for folks to exchange.

00:22:50 Shauna Leven

Ideas and support each other essentially and meet other multiple parents, and we also have geographically focused ones. So we have, you know Northern Ireland, one Scotland, one Wales, one that sort of thing. I think we have maybe 16 in all.

00:23:05 Shauna Leven

And and then where again those two things aren't enough, we have a family crisis service and our bereavement service. So family crisis service is really aimed at families that kind of find themselves in the most difficult situations, for example, of a a parent has has died.

00:23:27 Shauna Leven

You know, we've had a family recently who a triplet family, a triplet single parent family who had been provided a home by the local council that was infested with mold and causing health issues for the children. So, you know, in that case, we worked.

00:23:46 Shauna Leven

With the family to advocate the government, to move them and find them more suitable, housing, that sort of thing, while also providing a kind of practical support that a single parent triplet family needs and and then on the bereavement side of things, we offer bereavement befriending so we match bereaved families with people that have been through a similar experience.

00:24:06 Shauna Leven

And we also run an online community and have other initiatives there as well. So lots of work again with families and and this extends you know, I haven't talked about it as much, but all the way through kind of the issues faced by folks with older multiple teens and things like one passes their

00:24:27 Shauna Leven

Driving test and the other does it. I think it sounds a bit silly, but for anybody that has older twins and multiples, they'd probably appreciate the issues that that might cause in a family. Yeah, a whole a whole host of support for families.

00:24:43 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah, there's so much there that I think.

00:24:46 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Is, you know.

00:24:47 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Amazing and so beneficial and I I think a lot of times we focus or we think about the early years and that.

00:24:54 Dr Cristina Cavezza

That's really where our focus needs to be when they're infants, it's much harder or, you know, I think that's the perception. But you as you highlighted

00:25:00 Dr Cristina Cavezza

There there are.

00:25:02 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Unique challenges that happen along the way.

00:25:05 Dr Cristina Cavezza

That can still be quite difficult for families to navigate. How would you? How would you support a family in that? That is where the multiples are. Further along, let's say it is an issue like you brought up with the.

00:25:20 Dr Cristina Cavezza

You know, one passing their driving test and the other one not. How how does Twins Trust actually come in and and support that family and what what's practically, what do you offer there?

00:25:30 Shauna Leven

I think you know that's the sort of.

00:25:32 Shauna Leven

Silly example, but you know.

00:25:35 Shauna Leven

You know more sort.

00:25:36 Shauna Leven

Of real life examples include things like relationships. You know twins often have a unique relationship, and then as they grow into adults.

00:25:45 Shauna Leven

They need to learn to navigate relationships with other people as well as with each other, and that can cause rifts in the twin bond rifts. In other, you know, in in the marital relationship, things like that, and the kind of help we would provide I think would really depend on the specific situation, but we certainly have.

00:26:05 Shauna Leven

Information available on you know the basics of dealing with these situations, which really starts, you know, in early childhood with the idea of helping your twins become individuals that have their own personality and their own likes and dislikes.

00:26:20 Shauna Leven

But you know that would be, I would think a a really interesting example for our helpline. You know, a lot of our helpline volunteers have expertise in older multiples and in adult multiples and and you know that's the kind of thing that we would just really tailor our response for.

00:26:40 Shauna Leven

And so yeah, it's a, it's a, it's an interesting one and the challenges certainly don't end I I think.

00:26:47 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yes, absolutely. And I know you know,  I was intrigued to hear about the breastfeeding peer support service that you offer. And I think that that's, you know, it's such a wonderful way for particularly for first time moms to learn.

00:27:03 Dr Cristina Cavezza

How to breastfeed from other mothers. Could you speak a bit about that service? What it looks like, how like how it came about, what it looks like practically for families and how that support is delivered and received?

00:27:18 Shauna Leven

Sure. So it's actually feeding support and you know we we we really stress at Twins Trust that you know whatever works for the family is the right way to feed and and I think I don't have the stats to hand but I think the vast majority of our families do end up combination feeding so feeding some.

00:27:37 Shauna Leven

Milk, some formula, some breast, some bottle. You know, I think that's a really common experience, particularly in the UK where, you know, unfortunately the support that parents get in learning how to breastfeed is often just not enough when you're dealing with small.

00:27:58 Shauna Leven

Or premature infants.

00:28:00 Shauna Leven

And and you know more than one. So we the the service, I actually I don't know the origin story of the service but clearly there is a need because so many of our families come to us with challenges feeding and these challenges range from.

00:28:21 Shauna Leven

You know, establishing feeding, to not feeding the way they'd like to. You know, a lot of our families really want to breast feed and just find it really, really hard to get there and.

00:28:33 Shauna Leven

And we all of our volunteers are are accredited feeding specialists and you know our our peer-to-peer supporters are similarly trained by us. And it just you know, it just is a great way of helping people to deal with the unique feeding challenges that they may have I remember.

00:28:53 Shauna Leven

When my kids were really little.

00:28:56 Shauna Leven

I was also combination feeding but but trying to breast feed and at about four months we took them on an international flight and I was really worried about feeding them on the plane like how that was going to work are.

00:29:08 Shauna Leven

They you know.

00:29:09 Shauna Leven

Is it going to be different? How you know how to position them in a small airplane seat, that sort of thing. And I was able to get support.

00:29:16 Shauna Leven

Or just, you know, learning a few different feeding positions that would work in a, you know, in a small.

00:29:21 Shauna Leven

Kind of cramped.

00:29:22 Shauna Leven

Space like that. And so yeah, it's just that sort of, oh, I've had this experience too. Let me help you with what worked for me.

00:29:30 Shauna Leven

And sort of service so it's it's great and I think so much of our network is really thrilled to give back in that way share their tips, share what worked for them and what didn't work for them, that it's a real. It really underpins a lot of what we do at Twins Trust. 

00:29:45 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. And I think that that can't be understated, right, that support that you can get knowledge that you can get from people who have done it themselves. So yeah, I think that's really invaluable. I know that.

00:30:01 Dr Cristina Cavezza

There was a report actually published by the Education Committee in the UK earlier this year that looked at a number of issues, including childcare funding, and I remember you earlier on in the discussion today mentioning that being one of the key challenges for families multiple birth families. I know even in my own personal experience and in speaking with a lot of other multiple birth.

00:30:22 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Families here in Australia, that is such a big issue going back to work trying to find childcare spots when you have more than one baby.

00:30:32 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Is such a challenge or can be anyway, particularly if you want the ideal situation, which is them starting at the same time and being at the same childcare center so that you're not having to navigate, you know, pick up and drop off at two or three different locations. I wonder if you could speak to that report.

00:30:52 Dr Cristina Cavezza

And what it means for the multiple birth families that your charity supports and works with?

00:30:58 Shauna Leven

Yeah. So the government announced the package of reform for childcare provision in England earlier this year. I think it was in March and which was a positive step, I think.

00:31:10 Shauna Leven

Every parent of young children in the UK right now or in England, at least right now, and was happy to hear that this was on the government's radar, it was on the agenda. We don't think that the childcare provisions that they have announced at this point goes far enough.

00:31:29 Shauna Leven

And as you said, a lot of mums in particular, but it does also affect dads and are just struggling to get back into work if that's what they want to do because of the lack of availability and particularly lack of affordability of childcare places.

00:31:46 Shauna Leven

Because I think.

00:31:47 Shauna Leven

For a lot of parents, the math just doesn't add up. You know, you think about going back to work and you just have to look at how much you know you're ultimately going to be taking home after paying the exorbitant cost of childcare in most places in the UK, and you know the answer is written on the wall, as they say so.

00:32:07 Shauna Leven

Again, we're pleased it's on the agenda, but we have to make sure that the government goes far enough in terms of funding this program, but also ensuring that the quality of the childcare people get and the places available.

00:32:22 Shauna Leven

People aren't, you know, is is, is adequate and and in particular that the kind of the most disadvantaged families are included in this. There are some kind of unique characteristics to the way childcare provision is made here in the UK, for example, at the moment, there's no exception for people in full time.

00:32:43 Shauna Leven

Education. So you might qualify for childcare benefits if you're if you're under a certain income, but not if that's because you're in full time education, which just doesn't make.

00:32:51 Shauna Leven

A lot of.

00:32:51 Shauna Leven

Sense. So we're.

00:32:53 Shauna Leven

Working on some things like that and but really you know, we just need the offer particularly for one and two year.

00:33:02 Shauna Leven

And to work financially to work from the point of view of the child and from child development and from the point of view of the workforce, you know the workforce here is unfortunately very undervalued. And I think it's one of the most important jobs in the world. One of the hardest jobs in the world. And unfortunately, what we hear from the workforce is that they.

00:33:24 Shauna Leven

You know, often feel like.

00:33:26 Shauna Leven

People see them as babysitters, not educators, and and so these three kind of factions have come together in a coalition to make sure that all three of our political parties, if you think about the Conservatives, labor and the Liberal Democrats, are really considering the needs of all of these communities.

00:33:46 Shauna Leven

And and you know, for us the needs of multiples is, you know, even that much more so. And we're very committed to changing things for parents of multiples when it comes to finding affordable childcare, I think we have a long.

00:34:01 Shauna Leven

Road ahead.

00:34:01 Shauna Leven

Of us, of an election coming up. But I think that will probably be.

00:34:04 Shauna Leven

The tip of the iceberg.

00:34:06 Shauna Leven

But again, we're happy that it's on the agenda and you know that we have the space to talk about it right now.

00:34:13 Dr Cristina Cavezza

And from your point of view, what would be the ideal outcome?

00:34:19 Dr Cristina Cavezza

For multiple birth families

00:34:19 Shauna Leven

Fully funded, so fully funded childcare for every child you know before they start school. I suppose you know it's that that would be the ideal. There shouldn't have to be a choice between, you know, if you think about it from the perspective of, you know, the the primary caregiver.

00:34:39 Shauna Leven

You know the mother in most cases will have invested a lot in her.

00:34:44 Shauna Leven

Career at that point and for her to have to kind of leave the workforce because she can't afford to give her child, you know, the same leg up on the education system that she may or may not.

00:34:56 Shauna Leven

That I suppose.

00:34:57 Shauna Leven

Is A is a real shame, and I think the costs of not being able to return to work if that's what you choose to do. They only compound from there. You know, you may. You may not go back for some years. You may go back part time. You, you know, may then lose out on kind of advancement opportunities and overall a families finances.

00:35:18 Shauna Leven

Can be impacted for years to come, which will of course then impact on you know, the child's development and the child's opportunities. And so it's, you know, the the long term benefits of funded childcare, I think.

00:35:33 Shauna Leven

Really. You know, it's a kind of it's it's a no brainer, but I guess we have to find some money and make the argument.

00:35:44 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. And I'm all for that argument. You know, I I totally agree with you. I.

00:35:48 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Think I think, even from personal experience, I know that was a huge thing for me that having twins meant I couldn't return to my professional career in the same capacity.

00:36:02 Dr Cristina Cavezza

That I was doing completing, you know, prior to having children. And that was a huge adjustment I think really you know that having to return to work in a part time capacity then having to kind of even just switch switch jobs entirely because it just wasn't.

00:36:22 Dr Cristina Cavezza

It wasn't working out, you know. So I think that's, yeah, I I really think that's such a big a big focus for multiple birth families.

00:36:32 Shauna Leven

And interestingly, one of the things you know, we've heard, you know, there's a staffing crisis right now in the healthcare service, the NHS and and interestingly part of the problem there is childcare, you know, midwives in particular work these long shifts and who can find 12 hour.

00:36:53 Shauna Leven

Well, who wants 12 hour childcare? You know you don't want that. So there's, like, whole systemic changes. I think that need to be made to rebalance

00:37:00 Shauna Leven

the system that we've created here in the UK and allow people like early years workers, early years educators and midwives to actually do the work that they've trained to do and want to do, while also taking care of their own families, so it's there's a long road ahead I think. But you know, again we're happy that.

00:37:20 Shauna Leven

People in charge have started to realize that this is such a.

00:37:24 Shauna Leven

Big problem for us.

00:37:26 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. And I think even the the pandemic really affected a lot of things too. I know here in Australia, in the profession, I was working as a psychologist and we had to go completely to telehealth. So online therapy and at home, you know, there was a period of time.

00:37:47 Dr Cristina Cavezza

And you had to you, confined to your home and.

00:37:50 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I had at.

00:37:51 Dr Cristina Cavezza

That point my children probably would have been.

00:37:54 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Three or four years old and.

00:37:58 Dr Cristina Cavezza

no four years old and so there was just no way that I could.

00:38:03 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Effectively work from home with them.

00:38:07 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Not, you know, wanting to burst into the room. And when I'm on a confidential therapy call, you know that it just it was I I I found that really difficult. And I I wonder how did the pandemic.

00:38:22 Dr Cristina Cavezza

I imagine there are many effects of the pandemic on families, but if what? What has been the legacy of that in terms of what you've noticed and you're speaking with the multiple birth families that you speak to?

00:38:36 Shauna Leven

Well, interestingly, the government here in the UK is currently holding an inquiry into how a whole variety of you know parts of the government responded to the pandemic from, you know, provision of PPE. But we're engaged in responding to.

00:38:58 Shauna Leven

The we're we're responding to the part of the inquiry that's looking into how maternity services were delivered along with a coalition of other organizations and and I think you know from the perspective of healthcare, our families will really impacted by.

00:39:15 Shauna Leven

Not being able to be accompanied to appointments, particularly if they were going to be receiving bad news, but also to, you know, particularly giving birth on their own and then needing to care for one or more babies on their own during, you know, the height of the.

00:39:34 Shauna Leven

Pandemic, I think, was an incredibly difficult experience for a lot of families.

00:39:39 Shauna Leven

It's and and then you know if you're thinking about kind of post birth experiences, you know, our families already report feeling isolated because it is that much more difficult to get out of the house and to do the things that, you know, other folks who are home kind of taking care of one baby can do with ease, you know, going to the library.

00:39:59 Shauna Leven

Going to the swimming pool, things like that. It's so much harder if you've got more than one baby and I think that sense of isolation was really compounded that sense of, you know, not really having anybody else to turn to. That really understands what you're going through.

00:40:16 Shauna Leven

And was really compounded. And of course if you go up to kind of school age children, I think the impacts you know, we're still seeing the impacts of, you know, home education and that sort of thing. And I'm sure that will unfold for a long time from Twins Trust perspective. I think it forced.

00:40:36 Shauna Leven

The issue of digital service delivery, which I think has actually ended up really being a positive for us and for the Community we support because it means we can extend our reach so much further than the Southeast of England.

00:40:51 Shauna Leven

You know, before the pandemic, it was a given that courses happened in person and that meant, you know, they could really only be delivered in kind of population centers where you had a critical mass of multiple families that could attend. Otherwise, it really, you know, was difficult to kind of to run courses.

00:41:10 Shauna Leven

And so now you know that we have online courses. You know, again, I've, I've said this means we get families from all over the world attending and able to kind of take advantage of that.

00:41:20 Shauna Leven

Offering so although.

00:41:22 Shauna Leven

It sometimes feels a little bit less personal to do things digitally, and you know, we're all tired of being online all the time.

00:41:28 Shauna Leven

And it actually has allowed us to reach so many families that we wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach. So I think from that perspective, there's a bit of a silver lining.

00:41:38 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Absolutely. And I think it is important to see that silver lining and the importance of that and it is such a such a a positive thing that came out of something very difficult, but something that I think is is is.

00:41:54 Dr Cristina Cavezza

important, you know you spoke a bit about the campaigns. A number of campaigns that Twins Trust is working on on behalf of multiple birth families. What are what are some of the campaigns and and that. What are you hoping to achieve that we might not have already spoken about?

00:42:13 Shauna Leven

So childcare

00:42:14 Shauna Leven

And early years is definitely a focus for us at this point in time. And you know, it's such a it's such a big issue for our families. We have this window where the government is listening and we've got an election coming up where, you know it's going to be one of the big issues. So that's definitely something we are doing a lot on right now.

00:42:35 Shauna Leven

Again, I mentioned neonatal leave and care. We've worked on that with a charity called Bliss for a while now and again have a piece of legislation that's received what's called Royal Assent here, which means it's going to become a law and going to come into force very soon, I think not, not soon enough.

00:42:54 Shauna Leven

For some of our families, but soon, and which means from I think about 2025 families that have one or more babies in neonatal care will receive paid leave. Of course there's certain qualifications to that, but.

00:43:09 Shauna Leven

Other than that, we are working on responding to the COVID inquiry again to make sure our families voices are heard and we're actually about to do a survey and for our families to tell us a bit more about some of the other issues that they'd like us to be active on and.

00:43:28 Shauna Leven

So if if you follow Twins Trust on social media, or if you get our emails and keep an eye out for that because we're going to be asking lots of questions about the challenges.

00:43:37 Shauna Leven

And that people have faced and and what they'd like to see done. But other, you know, potential ideas are working with the health visiting service to, you know, educate more health visitors, of the challenges of having multiples again, working with midwifery, midwifery service to make sure more midwives understand the challenges associated with.

00:43:58 Shauna Leven

Expecting and having multiples, that sort of thing. So lots going on.

00:44:03 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. And such important work. Where can people find out more about Twins Trust?

00:44:10 Shauna Leven

Our website is a great place to start, so www.twinstrust.org and we have very active Facebook communities and and Instagram accounts. I I think Instagram is @TwinsTrust and I couldn't quote you the Facebook communities. There's there's many of them, but we do have a main Facebook page.

00:44:29 Shauna Leven

And then you can find our other communities from there. So again, we have everything from expectants to under ones to you know, special needs, geographical location, things like that at dads. I think we mentioned dads.

00:44:45 Shauna Leven

Earlier and so there's there's lots of kind of bespoke communities available. If if you're interested in from, in hearing from people in a situation like your own.

00:44:57 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you so much for your time today and your willingness to speak to what the work that you do, the important work that you do. And thank you so much for the work that you do for multiple birth families. It's been a pleasure having you here today.

00:45:13 Shauna Leven

It's been such a pleasure. It's so lovely to talk about Twins Trust and help make sure that people who might benefit from our services are aware of what we offer and what we can do. Thank you for having me.

00:45:25 Dr Cristina Cavezza

Thank you. Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you like what you've heard then please follow and.

00:45:34 Dr Cristina Cavezza

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00:45:35 Dr Cristina Cavezza

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00:45:45 Dr Cristina Cavezza

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00:45:57 Dr Cristina Cavezza

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00:46:16 Dr Cristina Cavezza

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